Kayak to Canoe

Considering selling my three kayaks and moving to a canoe. Vapor 12XT, Emotion Kayaks Pink Breast Cancer Kayak, Dagger Zydeco. My wife, after getting sucked under a strainer is not as keen to kayak any longer and the kayak has basically sat untouched for years. Our oldest who used the Zydeco has moved on and moved out. My back makes getting in an out of the Vapor difficult. So, along with having a 6 year old, I am considering a canoe that can be handled by a family, or by a solo person, with a possible medium sized dog coming along.

Mostly lakes, easy rivers, maybe class 2 occasionally. I would like to have the option of taking off down a river with my dog to go camping, but that is a big “would like to.” I would to be able to solo on the lake to fish. Any suggestions for canoes? Also, stick with double blade paddles, or move to single blade? Which is best for a canoe?

Dog rules. How big is the dog… Is your wife ever going to canoe with you?

Wenonah Solo Plus?

What weight is the dog?
What weight is the 6 year old?
What weight are you?
What weight is wife? That’s a mute point if she is not going.

A Wenonah Solo Plus sounds like a good suggestion, but the more weight you have in the canoe; the more likely issues will start rearing their head.
Can the 6 year old sit still; for reasonable amounts of time?
How about the dog? Spent a lot of time in canoes has it? Minds well? I’m betting not.

If crew includes you, kid, and dog, I’d suggest (blasphemy) a kayak paddle as your primary. and a canoe paddle as your secondary. You & your wife paddling; maybe 2 canoe paddles or 1 canoe & 1 kayak paddle? Depends on paddlers skill level with paddles, and canoes…

BOB

P.S. Strainers don’t suck people under them…
Poor route selection and the paddler’s inability (typically lack of skill) to avoid strainers (with proper boat placement) make a great combo if one enjoys strainer swimming .

The number 1 cause of strainer swimming I’ve seen is excessive drinking by day floating “river dorks”, aka drunks in rental boats.

Several other boats that might fit your needs are:

Old Town Penobscot
Old Town Pathfinder
Old Town Camper
Prospector; made by several different canoe companies.

Check out Craiglist in your area for those & other models.
I’d suggest Royalex layup, seldom used condition, nicely priced.

Quite a few families bail on canoeing after the first year or two. They used it twice.
Five years down the road, it has five years of dust accumulation, because it never gets used.

Sometimes you can find a like new canoe with paddles, pfds, and dry bags…real cheap.
The adventuresome family has moved on; to pumpkin seed kayaks, paddle boards, or inflatables.

Here’s my Visa/Master card; outfit us handsomely my good man…
And we’d like to talk to you about a Go Pro camera & a drone to film our “adventures”
Ka Ching!
:^)

BOB

What you are looking for will require a fair bit of compromise if you only want just one boat. Tandem canoes that can easily be paddled solo tend to be not that good for either solo or tandem paddling, thought that’s not true for every type of solo or tandem use (and “type of use” includes the size and nature of the paddler/paddlers himself/themselves, and smaller, lightweight people have a big advantage when it comes to “pocket tandem” canoes). It’s true that there was a time when lots of people solo-paddled tandem canoes, but that was before dedicated solo canoes became so widely available, and even then, solo paddling of tandem canoes was never done well by anyone other than experts, so for most of us, solo paddling in canoes is best done in boats made for that. To do all that you wish, ideally you would have two boats, and perhaps one of the two boats could still be a kayak.

The question of double-blade paddle versus single depends mostly on how much effort you wish to put into learning good technique. Single-blade paddling isn’t something you just pick up naturally in a short time. I made up my mind from the start that the single-blade was what I wanted to use, but it was very frustrating at first and it took me a whole year of frequent, dedicated practice before my technique was even remotely efficient, and another year to get reasonably good at some of the more nuanced stuff. Years later, I’m no expert, but to most people at least, it tends to look like I know what I’m doing :slight_smile: Of course, it takes very little time at all to learn crappy single-blade technique that gets you where you are going in simple conditions, and for a lot of people that’s enough. For even more, the double-blade is the only method they ever consider for solo paddling. It’s all up to you.

There are a whole host of solo canoes that would fit the bill for solo paddling (though I’m leaving out consideration of the dog since there’s no indication yet regarding its size and temperament), and a few small tandems which may or may not be pretty good, depending on the type of use and paddler size, such as the Wenonah Solo Plus or the old Bell Morningstar. Sometimes the best thing is to decide which is your primary purpose and get some kind of boat that fits the bill for that, figuring that you can switch boats or add boats later on. That’s a case where you might see something for sale, and come back here with a question about using that boat for a particular purpose. Otherwise, the list of recommendations could be nearly endless.

I agree with Bob about strainers and boat control, and would add that learning to understand current falls under “boat control” too. For most situations where someone ends up in a strainer, the problem should be recognizable well in advance of when it actually happens, and if your wife thought of it in that way instead of thinking of it as an awful thing that happened, it probably wouldn’t be something that keeps her off the water now (though that gets into stuff that’s well outside of the obvious topic).

Wife: Says she will. She likes the idea of being in the boat with someone.

Strainer: She didn’t listen to everything I said, went sideways into it, flipped, sucked under, popped out the other side. Water was down and a normal 4 hour paddle was going on hour 7. We were all tired and ready to be done. No alcohol, we own the boats.

Total weight is 408 for people (and dropping), dog is 42.2, and would only go with me, would put us at 268. Dog will be 4 months into training before I would attempt to take her with me. She is currently only 4 weeks into training.

It will most likely only ever be me and my dog, or me and my son, but I want the option of taking my wife.

Ah! The good old days; paddling a 17 foot aluminum tandem, solo, in the middle of winter.
Photo taken on a 7 day paddling trip; probably 1983.
Canoe was an Osagian.

BOB

-If one ends up in a strainer using a recreational kayak, what makes one think using a canoe in which good single blade skills(that have as of yet been acquired) will be the right solution? (With a canoe caught in a strainer, you get the added “enjoyment” of emptying it and extracting yourself out, of an even potentially heavier filled bath tub. Remember, If you’re not buying an ultra-lightweight and high-end canoe, each pound weighs two with each passing year. Hence, the “gathering dust” references cited above.)

-If one’s back pains them getting in and out of a Vapor, does one really want to regularly car top and man handle a large 16 foot canoe when they wish to go solo? (Also, many complain manufacturer’s canoe seats and a canoe’s paddling position, end up aggravating their bad back a whole lot more than being a kayak “butt boater.”

-Don’t take any 6 year old down any prolonged length technical Class IIs–Wait till he’s a little older.

Perhaps consider a tandem Sit-On-Top kayak(both comfortable and controllable enough for just you and the wife, you and the dog, you and the kid.) OR, a tandem well made self-bailing inflatable kayak(These are not cheap “pool toys”–I’ve taken two large dogs and a kid out in one for years.) OR, an economical double-blade canoe in the 12’-to-14’ range(more than enough for your fishing/solo/kid/dog needs…Especially if the wife remains disenchanted with paddling :wink: Simplify.

I have found that many of my canoe students swopped out of kayak due to back issues… No longer does sitting on the floor with legs in a frog position work… For some that is unattainable. David Yost pointed out that getting up requires one more old fashioned Manhattan thickness phone book for each ten years. You can always fiddle with the seats in a canoe… Yes in a kayak too but there are more space constraints.

Ok we all take our four year olds down techy class II, My kids ran the Allagash ( Chase Rapids ) at six. Their first canoe trip was at six months. But we had ten years canoe experience beffore we did that.

Archimedes was a wise physicist. 12 foot long is not ample for your boats burden. Car topping a 50 lb canoe means simply picking up one end… sliding it up and picking up the other end ( the first one is now supported). 25 lbs max at a time. Kayaks tend to roll over…at least our Caribou and Shenai are a little temperamental loaded from the back end.

@spiritboat said:

Perhaps consider a tandem Sit-On-Top kayak(both comfortable and controllable enough for just you and the wife, you and the dog, you and the kid.) OR, a tandem well made self-bailing inflatable kayak(These are not cheap “pool toys”–I’ve taken two large dogs and a kid out in one for years.) OR, an economical double-blade canoe in the 12’-to-14’ range(more than enough for your fishing/solo/kid/dog needs…Especially if the wife remains disenchanted with paddling :wink: Simplify.

A tandem plastic SOT is typically going to weigh significantly more than a canoe of the same length. Something to consider.

Inflatable kayaks have definitely seen some improvements in recent years. The Razorlites are an example.

@Yanoer said:
“A tandem plastic SOT is typically going to weigh significantly more than a canoe of the same length. Something to consider.”

“Typically”? Really? Hmmm…

I don’t expect say, any Wenonah canoe to go head-to-head in a spec-weight battle with a poly tandem SOT–Or even a good Royalex 16 foot canoe…But there are plenty of tandem SOTs in the 12 to 14 foot range that come in under, if not the same as many a canoe sold(take a stroll through a place like Dick’s where some Old Town 13 and 14 footers start minimum at 75lbs. unladen). Remember, the OP is already schlepping around 3 kayaks.

“Inflatable kayaks have definitely seen some improvements in recent years…”
As to inflatables, there have been “improvements” in recent years–As with any paddle craft where the designers continue to look for/care about making new improvements. But many IKs have been a sturdy quality product for some time now
(I know, I own four different ones). This one I’ve had for over 10 years with no punctures or problems…



There is always a trade off/compromise in specs and performance. But as you are an “expert,” I need not bother telling you any of this.

Oh, you’re comparing to Old Town Discoveries and the like. Yes, they match the weight of the 60 to 80lb poly SOTs.

Oh, and since Yanoer specifically made the comparison of a tandem sit-on-top to the weight of a canoe, I think it’s a tad misleading to start quoting the weight of 12- to 14-footers instead. Seriously, are there any tandem sit-on-tops that weigh less than 100 pounds? If there are, then how many are under 90 pounds? I could be off by a bit, but I think 90 pounds is about the maximum weight I’ve seen for a cheap, plastic, 17-foot tandem canoe. I’m pretty confident that any 17-foot sit-on-top would be well in excess of 100 pounds, not that I’m an expert or anything.

Oh boy. You be-true-to-your-canoe-school guys are really too much.

My original reply to the OP made no mention of either length or weight in his possible consideration of a tandem SOT. Why do you think this guy needs a 17-foot anything when many types of (yes, smaller)paddle craft(canoe, SOT, IK,etc.)would work just as well to meet his needs or serve his purposes? Oh wait! The topic said “Kayak to Canoe”!!! Mea Culpa, your Excellencies!

-Personally, I don’t usually reply to replies on the Advice forum. My original comments were to the OP. I’ll leave the “correcting” to those who like to spend more time on here than I do.

And thank you Yanoer, for the acknowledgement of the boat weight match ups. I apologize for any perceived condescension(Especially since, you seem to have a protector.)

@spiritboat said:
Oh boy. You be-true-to-your-canoe-school guys are really too much.

My original reply to the OP made no mention of either length or weight in his possible consideration of a tandem SOT.

And thank you Yanoer, for the acknowledgement of the boat weight match ups. I apologize for any perceived condescension(Especially since, you seem to have a protector.)

I acknowledged that the heaviest canoes match with an average weight tandem poly SOT. Poly SOTs are typically heavier than poly sit in kayaks, whether solo or tandem, regardless of length, from what I have observed. An exception might be the Pelican short kayaks. There doesn’t seem to be much difference in weight between some of their approximately 10’ sit ins and SOTs.

There are canoes that are as heavy as SOTs of the same length, no one is denying that, but in general, poly SOTs tend to be heavier than sit ins of the same length and width, as well as canoes of the same length and width. The Epic and Stellar SOTs/skis are exceptions.

SOTs are definitely easier to mount and dismount than sit ins for people that are stiff in the knees or hips, that’s why I got one for my wife, but hers is carbon/kevlar and only weighs 40 lbs. I prefer not to carry boats over 45 lbs, since my knees and right shoulder are a bit gimpy.

I own and paddle multiple kayaks and solo canoes, so there’s no 'be-true-to-your-canoe-school guys" stuff coming from me.

I’d like to have a light weight SOT in the 13-14’ range some day, but there aren’t many options out there in my price range - a used one will come along some day, though… Plenty of heavy ones in that length, though. I might even get a couple of the cheap pelican’s to mess around on with the grandkids this summer.

@spiritboat said:
Oh boy. You be-true-to-your-canoe-school guys are really too much.

My original reply to the OP made no mention of either length or weight in his possible consideration of a tandem SOT. Why do you think this guy needs a 17-foot anything when many types of (yes, smaller)paddle craft(canoe, SOT, IK,etc.)would work just as well to meet his needs or serve his purposes?

You are right, a tandem sit-on-top wouldn’t need to be 17 feet long, but since the only ones I’ve seen have been about 15 or 16 feet and since you mentioned the canoes most commonly seen (here, I mainly see full-size tandem canoes in the “cheap” market), that’s where I assumed that length for the canoe being compared to and didn’t think that was too far off for the sit-on-top length. Anyway, I admit that I was thinking that sit-on-tops would at least need to be in excess of the lengths in your example, but it turns out I was wrong.

I just searched a little and there are some tandems that really are between 12 and 14 feet long, with the shorter ones being a little under 70 pounds. I’m struck by the fact that the front paddler is either nestled so closely between the rear paddler’s legs that I have to wonder how well the rear paddler can even handle his own paddle, or else the rear paddler sits so close to the stern that the boat surely squats badly in the water and handles like a pig (certainly this would be true in either case for the total paddler weight that has been indicated), but nevertheless, these boats exist.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with being true to canoes. I only focused on weight and comparative functionality in this case, even now after figuring out that tandem SOTs can be so much shorter than I knew. There have been quite a few times that I’ve recommended a couple of specific kayaks for very specific uses (so it’s true that that’s not a common thing for me), which I’ve become familiar with via certain friends here.

Only a comment regarding my experiences with a Wenonah Solo Plus.

Years ago we had a royalite solo plus. As a tandem we found the solo plus fairly unstable as at the time we were two large paddlers in the weight range you describe. Both the bow and stern seating positions were very narrow and we had to be aware of each other’s weight shifts to maintain balance and avoid swims. An active dog like our German Shorthair also presented a problem in maintaining canoe balance. She often went from side to side and front to back as her expensive nose picked up new scents or sounds and brought us very close to a few swims.

I primarily used the solo plus for solo paddling with a double blade and found it great for lakes and very wide fairly straight rivers, especially when loaded for downriver camping. However on twisty rivers like the Buffalo, Current, and Eleven Point Rivers in the Ozarks I found it not very maneuverable. Like my friend thebob said on our first trip on the upper Buffalo River; “With that boat you have to pick your line early, hold it, and hope you’re right.”

It was especially challenging for me when encountering an unseen obstacle like a strainer or rock after a blind turn and I had to maneuver quickly without much lead time. Soon after I started canoeing Ozark rivers on a regular basis I traded in the Solo Plus for a Mad River Freedom Solo.

Honestly - the OP, according to his info, could do just fine in a Wenonah 14’ Fisherman - as long as it is just him and one other or him solo. 52 lbs in royalex - if you can find one. 49 lbs in Tuf-weave, which can be bought new. BTDT, and it was quite do-able.

KInd of a low-tech option (that canoe purists may sneer at) but my ex and I, who usually kayaked but occasionally tandem paddled an Old Town Guide 146, had rented a Mad River Adventure 16 on a trip to the Everglades and really liked it. It’s a rotomold plastic boat that is kind of a hybrid of a classic canoe and a sit on top kayak – also comes in a 14’ version. While the model has the higher seating of a canoe, it’s narrow enough and has low enough gunwales (and a kayak-like tumblehome) that we found it easily paddled with kayak paddles – 230 cm in the bow and 240 cm in the stern.

We enjoyed that rental enough, both back in the glades and on the rougher exposed water along the coastal inlets, that I kept my eye out for one for sale when we got back from that trip and eventually found a used one on Craigslist for $400 (owner even threw in a 30 watt electrical trolling motor). We used the boat often, including on some class 2 streams, which it handled with aplomb, and found we preferred it to the more conventional Old Town. Lots of room for hauling stuff, tracked well and had a third seat in the center. I think the low sides would make it good for hauling dogs and kids. The only real drawback is that the molded in seats mean it isn’t practical to paddle from a kneeling position.

I fully admit that it doesn’t have the grace and class of a We-no-nah or other classic canoe, but as a utility family beater boat, hard to argue with the price and function. The ex bought me out of my half-share on the boat after the breakup since he had a barn and I did not – I definitely miss the canoe more than I miss him.

These are common on Craigslist since they are heavily sold at big box sporting good stores like the ubiquitous Dick’s (who at one time sold them with a different model name: Passage 14 and Passage 16.) I almost always see them for $300 to $500.