I’ve had some energy lately to revisit and re-examine strokes that I learned many many years ago. Included among these were low brace turns, bow rudders and hanging draw strokes (not really a turn but thats OK for the point of this question). I tried them with onside and offside edging, and no edging at all to see how much impact that had. My general impression was that edging helped (although so dramatically that I didn’t have to think about and wondering if I was imagining it), but that the side I was edging towards wasn’t terribly consequential. Is this surprising? Usually I hear people advise to edge/lean away from the turn. One thing that is going on with edges and leans is that you are shortening your boats waterline, adding more rocker (e.g., if the boat were sitting completely on its side it would have tremendous rocker), and getting the stems partly out of the water. So from this perspective, it doesn’t seem surprising insofar as tilting your boat in either direction would accomplish this.

However, another argument I have heard about edging and leaning goes something like this (at least this is my understanding of it). If underway, the bow will be locked in place no matter what because of the greater pressure on it as it parts the water. The stern is more free to move from side to side. By putting your boat on edge (for example lets say to the right), it is easier for your boat to rotate counterclockwise because the back of the boat can skid to the right more easily. Put differently, the water can slide more easily under the rear stem and the V-like cross section of your boat as that V starts to turn on its right side. If the V turns gets tilted to the left however, the water is just hitting a vertical wall so that the boat will meet with greater resistance when trying to skid. Anyway, maybe my understanding of this is not right to begin with, but if it is, this 2nd factor seems not to be very significant with my boat (Necky Chatham 17) because all that seems to matter is that it is edged. Again, the direction of edge doesn’t seem very consequential. Boats with different hull shapes (e.g., those with rounded hulls) would conceivably behave differently.

Anyway, I’m just trying to have an accurate understanding of why my boat does what it does, so I welcome any knowledge or additional speculation about all this.

Taking my own experience into account, I think you’ve got it pretty much nailed. Boat design does have an influence on the effect of edging in general, and to either side in a given turn direction. Not so much, however, as a good, long sweep (or two or three) to get the boat turning before (or as) you edge and optionally brace. Wind, of course, has something to say about this as well, but aside from experience with it hampering turns I thought would be fine, I couldn’t articulate what’s going on there exactly.

I do find that edging strongly away and using a low brace (or having one ready) turns my boat very quickly. But in conditions where my running brace might be running over (or under) large waves, I’d much prefer edging toward the turn with an inside low brace for the stability it affords and better recovery position. The slower turning response I get from this is a very acceptable trade off.

Using a bow rudder, I exclusively edge away from the turn and the results are a nice tight turn while “hanging” off the paddle. At present it just doesn’t feel right to edge into this, though I’m sure there are some who may disagree.

Edging away from the turn is generally more efficient if you want to stay dry. An extreme edge toward the turn will allow the boat to spin on its edge, but you’re probably going to get wet. The latter performed in a certain way, I believe is called an Haghighi. Try this link, but if it doesn’t work, go to YouTube and search for Haghighi Kayak Turn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBVh6LquFYU&t=115s Well looky there; somehow I think the video magically appeared .

@Monkeyhead said:
I’ve had some energy lately to revisit and re-examine strokes that I learned many many years ago. Included among these were low brace turns, bow rudders and hanging draw strokes (not really a turn but thats OK for the point of this question). I tried them with onside and offside edging, and no edging at all to see how much impact that had. My general impression was that edging helped (although so dramatically that I didn’t have to think about and wondering if I was imagining it), but that the side I was edging towards wasn’t terribly consequential. Is this surprising? Usually I hear people advise to edge/lean away from the turn. One thing that is going on with edges and leans is that you are shortening your boats waterline, adding more rocker (e.g., if the boat were sitting completely on its side it would have tremendous rocker), and getting the stems partly out of the water. So from this perspective, it doesn’t seem surprising insofar as tilting your boat in either direction would accomplish this.

However, another argument I have heard about edging and leaning goes something like this (at least this is my understanding of it). If underway, the bow will be locked in place no matter what because of the greater pressure on it as it parts the water. The stern is more free to move from side to side. By putting your boat on edge (for example lets say to the right), it is easier for your boat to rotate counterclockwise because the back of the boat can skid to the right more easily. Put differently, the water can slide more easily under the rear stem and the V-like cross section of your boat as that V starts to turn on its right side. If the V turns gets tilted to the left however, the water is just hitting a vertical wall so that the boat will meet with greater resistance when trying to skid. Anyway, maybe my understanding of this is not right to begin with, but if it is, this 2nd factor seems not to be very significant with my boat (Necky Chatham 17) because all that seems to matter is that it is edged. Again, the direction of edge doesn’t seem very consequential. Boats with different hull shapes (e.g., those with rounded hulls) would conceivably behave differently.

Anyway, I’m just trying to have an accurate understanding of why my boat does what it does, so I welcome any knowledge or additional speculation about all this.

@Sparky961 said:
Taking my own experience into account, I think you’ve got it pretty much nailed. Boat design does have an influence on the effect of edging in general, and to either side in a given turn direction. Not so much, however, as a good, long sweep (or two or three) to get the boat turning before (or as) you edge and optionally brace. Wind, of course, has something to say about this as well, but aside from experience with it hampering turns I thought would be fine, I couldn’t articulate what’s going on there exactly.

I do find that edging strongly away and using a low brace (or having one ready) turns my boat very quickly. But in conditions where my running brace might be running over (or under) large waves, I’d much prefer edging toward the turn with an inside low brace for the stability it affords and better recovery position. The slower turning response I get from this is a very acceptable trade off.

Using a bow rudder, I exclusively edge away from the turn and the results are a nice tight turn while “hanging” off the paddle. At present it just doesn’t feel right to edge into this, though I’m sure there are some who may disagree.

You’re right, and I incorrectly implied that the bow rudder was one of the moves I tried with an onside lean. It wasn’t. That does sound pretty tricky to pull off. As a side note, I did try the bow jam that was mentioned a couple of weeks ago by Greg Stamer. It worked GREAT!! I got a ton of turn and had no stability problems. The only problem I had was that when I tried to do it while the boat was traveling at a good speed, it was too difficult to control the paddle.

Boat lean is so important not just for the skidding turns that you guys seem to be talking about, but also carving turns under power. I am in a canoe and primarily a river paddler, and in those circumstances you generally lean into the turn when carving or doing spinning turns like eddy turns or peal outs. In free style canoeing, leaning into a skidding turn is called and axle, leaning away from a skidding turn is called a post. Tough to write about here, but fun to practice on the water.

The same principles apply to canoes. Bow rudders anchor the boat if the heel is toward the turn. If the heel is away it causes the hull not to be anchored but to carve a turn. The former in FreeStyle is called an axle and the latter a post.
The bow jam in canoeing is termed a wedge… Its the fastest of all the turns as the boat is carving and essentially the paddle forms a new wider hull shape which accentuates the turn. Paddle control is essential… just a little angle… Too much and you have braking issues

the direction of the lean is determined by whether you want the bow to slide or the stern to slide …the stroke or paddle action emphasis should correlate.

@roym said:
the direction of the lean is determined by whether you want the bow to slide or the stern to slide …the stroke or paddle action emphasis should correlate.

This is interesting. Can you elaborate? Which way causes which to slide?

You can get a lot of different answers to this question, as it is a complicated matter,
not only because of all the different terminology use like ‘edging’, ‘leaning’ and ‘heeling’.
On my website I have a whole page dedicated to the subject of heeling a canoe:

https://sites.google.com/site/barendsnoot/hellen

but since it is in Dutch, only the illustrations used may be interesting
as Google Translate doesn’t really help much , I’m afraid.
My compromized translation may be better although limited, as my English is not native:

The effect you get when you heel your canoe, depends on:

• the actual movement of the canoe through the water;
• the actual shape of the hull in the water, which depends on:
• the design of your canoe;
• the trim of your canoe;
• to which side you heel your canoe;
• how much you heel your canoe.

Intensive experimenting with your own boat is the only sure way to find out what really works – for you.

Also you can heel your boat for different purposes, namely for

1. course keeping;
2. maneuverability;
3. stability;
4. dryness.

[1] To give the boat a tendency to turn in a certain direction

When you heel to the right when moving forward, the resultant asymmetrical shape of the hull in the water will give the canoe a tendency (Bernoulli effect?) to move to the right. Because the bow normally has more resistance than the stern when moving forward, the stern moves stronger to the right than the bow with the resultant move to the left as illustrated, assuming normal trim (even keel) and movement forward:

Some designs (e.g. hard chined hulls with very deep V-bottoms?) may do this the opposite way, but these are not the hull shapes one is likely to find in the regular touring canoe.

Also the effect depends on the amount of heel and the actual trim: a very strong heel in combination with a stern heavy trim could result in a movement to the opposite direction, as is illustrated quite well in this pictures from canoeist Charles Burchill:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~burchil/pm_canoe/edging_turn.jpg

But this is paddling a tandem canoe heeled when paddling solo, instead of heeling a tandem canoe when paddled tandem, where you are in fact creating a whole different underwater shape:

[2] To make the boat more maneuverable
The more you heel a canoe, the more the profile in the water changes to a more ‘rockered’ shape which makes the boat more maneuverable.

Especially for straighter keeled boats this technique of extensive leaning a canoe for more maneuverability is recommended by many, although personally, I consider this only really useful as a flat water technique. In waves and current I prefer a design that doesn’t need to be heeled to be able to make a turn. I care more about stability and dryness in that kind of situations, see the next point.

[3] To enhance stability

• When encountering great differences in current, one has to heel the boat downstream for stability, but preferably not more than is really necessary. Also with hard crosswinds I heel a little bit into the wind and waves to prevent capsizing by wind and/or wave forces.
• It is more stable to heel into a turn on flat water when your speed is high. Some designs (owned one) behave really unpleasant when heeling to the outside of a turn with full speed.
• If you make a turn on fast moving water, you should heel as much as necessary to the outside (downstream) of the turn for stability. But when entering an eddy with forward speed it is more stable to heel into a turn (which technically is heeling downstream too, because it is in respect to the current in the eddy). For speed advantages though, slalom racers often heel to the outside when doing an eddy turn.

[4] To keep an open canoe ‘possibly’ dryer by heeling a bit away from a wave: only (recommended) if you do know when and how to do it (safely)!

@Sparky961 said:

@roym said:
the direction of the lean is determined by whether you want the bow to slide or the stern to slide …the stroke or paddle action emphasis should correlate.

This is interesting. Can you elaborate? Which way causes which to slide?

Interesting indeed. My guess, and its nothing more than that, but I think it goes back to how the V-part of the bow and stern stems interact with the water, and as stated elsewhere is very much dependent on the shape of the hull. If you tilt kayak to the right and try to turn counterclockwise, think first about what is happening at the forward stem. The V will tilt to the right such that the left part of the V (the part pushing against the water in a counterclockwise turn) becomes more vertical. As such, it will meet with more resistance as it tries to push water out of the way. Then think about what is happening at the stern. With the same counterclockwise turn, it is the right side of the V that is pushing against the water, but for the stern, tilting the V to the right makes the right side of the V even less vertical. As such, it will meet with less resistance as the water can more easily slip past the stern. Hence, you are facilitating a stern skid. Of course, if you lean or edge the boat in the opposite direction during a turn, you get the opposite result. Theoretically at least, that would make sense to me.

@Sparky961 said:

@roym said:
the direction of the lean is determined by whether you want the bow to slide or the stern to slide …the stroke or paddle action emphasis should correlate.

This is interesting. Can you elaborate? Which way causes which to slide?

think about a knife spreading butter {or what-ever} as you edge …either the bow or the stern spreads the other digs…edge the other way and again …either the bow or the stern slides and the other digs. If the paddle force is exerted to compliment where the sliding will occur…efficient turn…everything working together.

With kayaks, my experience is that it depends very much on the particular hull. The simple test for this is to paddle up to speed in a straight line, release the paddle and glide, then lean one way. You boat may veer left or right, or it may stay mostly straight. The natural tendency of your hull will reveal itself. Boats with rounder hulls tend to prefer an outside edge; sharper-chined hulls don’t seem to care as much either way. At least that’s been my experience.

Not to nitpick, but isn’t there a difference between leaning and edging? My understanding is that edging is heeling the kayak but remaining in body balance. Leaning is heeling past that body balance, using a supportive brace. Or falling in if you don’t.

yeah, that’s right. You’re torso is more-or-less vertical when you edge, but at the same angle as the kayak when you lean.

@Rookie said:
Not to nitpick, but isn’t there a difference between leaning and edging? My understanding is that edging is heeling the boat but remaining in body balance. Leaning is heeling past that body balance, using a supportive brace. Or falling in if you don’t.

Edging is a more British (kayaking) term used for heeling by making a so called ‘boat lean’ (canoe A).

where heeling by making a so called ‘body lean’ (canoe B ) is then called leaning.

Leaning is the action to ‘heel’ a canoe,
because one can also heel a canoe without leaning
for instance by kneeling with two knees in the bilge,
what many solo paddlers in tandem canoes tend to do.

B usually gets you wet on flatwater
A is also called the J lean in canoeing… More practically called heeling the boat,

Once very long ago I told a ships Captain who got in a kayak for the first day to lean the boat over the right to carve a turn to the left.

I promptly had to walk the plank with a wet Captain in back of me.

@kayamedic said:
B usually gets you wet on flatwater

Indeed, unless you are able to prevent that with a paddle brace, of course.

Most often a brace is combined with another paddle stroke like a sweep or draw then, although I try to avoid the need for that when doing a sweep or draw. A boat lean (A) often requires no brace so you can do other things with your paddle and react more quickly to changing situations.

A is also called the J lean in canoeing…

Yes, and a body lean is called a bell buoy lean then?

More practically called heeling the boat,

Leaning is the action to ‘heel’ a canoe,
no matter how you do it (body or boat lean).
And one can also heel a canoe without leaning
for instance by kneeling with two knees in the bilge,
what many solo paddlers in tandem canoes tend to do.

Canoe B = paddling ‘heeled’, a.k.a. 'Canadian Style

Of course the boats and the water don’t care about the right words but only the right way to do it, depending on what you want to achieve.

In the mean time the original question is not really answered, and I am still wondering if there can be a significant difference between an onside and offside lean during turns? When using a boat lean it is possible to quickly change ones paddling side so I wonder if and when it really matters if one uses an onside or offside lean during turns.

Well, what I have taken away from this thread is that in theory, at least, an onside vs offside tilt can promote bow vs stern skidding during a turn, respectively. Ironically perhaps, there would be an optimum heel angle for this in that too much heel, on a boat with any rocker, would take the bow and stern stems out of the water and you might lose this effect. I’m going to have to test all this out in a few days when I next get in the water. I suspect with my boat it’s not going to have a discernible impact but it’s an empirical question.

Before you do that, lets elaborate a bit on that:

(ignore the dutch writing in this illustration)

Suppose you want to turn to the left with a straight keeled boat with a V shaped bow and stern where it could really matter which way the bow is heeled.
While paddling on the left side while leaning to the right one could use a stationary draw or rudder (Duffek for some). When paddling on the right side, I would use a forward sweep. For a very strong turn I would possibly prefer the paddle on the left side. And in that case, one could say an offside lean would be better?