Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced??

Last week, I took some people down the Colorado River, 42 miles over 6 days from Hoover Dam to Cotonwood Marina and along the way, after a couple afternoons of wild wind and waves, they were discussing if they were still beginners or had advanced to becoming intermediate paddlers. Neither thought that they had become advanced or expert paddlers.
NOTE that they had done this stretch before last year and had done other multi-day river runs with many overnighters and day-trips since they started a couple years ago so they are far from the newbe that buys a crap-boat and tries something dangerously stupid.

BUT I was wondering, for you all who have been doing this for a lifetime, when do you realize “Hey! I’m no longer a beginner or intermediate paddler?”

I have been on motor boats since I was a child. I have paddled tandem canoes since I was a teen, and solo canoes the last 10 years. I rowed a row boat with a friend down the Hillsborough River and across Tampa Bay as a teen. I have also been paddling sea kayaks over the last 10 years. I have paddled coastal waters and surfed my sea kayak numerous times. I have paddled white water up to class IV in open canoes, but that hasn’t been a focus of mine. I have also paddled canoes on various rivers, lakes and swamps. I enjoy camping from my canoes and kayaks. I have also sailed as a teen and again more recently. I am not a racer in any of my boats,

I don’t think of myself as a novice, intermediate or advanced paddler. I am not really sure how to define them other than novice. I just consider myself an experienced paddler and boater, That finds there is always more to learn or try. Age is coming into play these days, but in 2 days I will be primitive camping on a coastal beach from my sea kayak with a close friend for 2 nights and 3 days.

Flotsam, I’ll give you an intermediate +. As you said, beyond novice there is a HUGE group of intermediates.
We know people who have paddled for decades who still can’t roll their kayaks.
The Oscar Chalupskis are pretty rare.
I would define advanced as being able to handle their chosen craft in any set of conditions short of deadly.
Advanced paddlers know when to stay on the beach.

Do you still count as an “experienced paddler” if most of your experiences have been bad?

@RikJohnson said:
BUT I was wondering, for you all who have been doing this for a lifetime, when do you realize “Hey! I’m no longer a beginner or intermediate paddler?”

When almost everyone you go out paddling with has fewer skills and less refined judgement than you, you are certainly “comfortable intermediate” or greater. That, or you’re just a bit delusional.

@pblanc said:
Do you still count as an “experienced paddler” if most of your experiences have been bad?

That’s how most of us learn! ;0)

When I was very green I had the honor of paddling with Dan Colodney (aka LIV2PADDLE). Watching him paddle a kayak was a real treat. Never saw anyone before or since hold a paddle the way he did. Anyway… paddling with him let me know that I was absolutely not ‘advanced’. Yeah, I could go far and fairly fast but my boat handling skills were non-existent when compared to his. He was a euro dude and I wound up going for the GP but my goal has been to be as comfortable and agile in a kayak as LIV2. I’d grade myself a solid intermediate now.
In short… I’m no longer a beginner if I come somewhat closer to paddling like someone as skilled as Dan.

During the years I was keeping a paddling logbook, I paddled over 10,000 miles. Might be up to 15,000 now. I started paddling
“my own canoe” in 1956.
A drop in the bucket when compared to some of the “paddling gods”.
Never competed in races.
Certified as Water Safety, Advanced Swiftwater Rescue. Lifeguard, and Canoeing Instructor. That means little to most & much to me.

I ran high class 2, and low class 3 whitewater. The guys I paddled with had the same certifications, and the same skill level as me.
When they quit whitewater paddling; I basically gave up doing whitewater. My skill level dropped.
I really trusted those guys to cover my ass( as I did theirs, if things went south, and they did sometime, when we pushed too hard.

What is my skill level now? I wouldn’t venture a guess. Ask the people I paddle with now & you might get a response.
I’ll be 75 in December; I still paddle, but I lollygag a lot more than I used to.

It don’t matter…never did to me.
BOB

This is a common problem. We have people that have sit on kayaks signing up to our seakayak site that think they are “advanced” since they have been paddling their SOT fishing kayak for five years. Or they have been around boats all their life so they think they are intermediate. Then they ask what kind of kayak they should buy for their first kayak. We have quantified the ratings to a classification system. This way they classify the paddler by skills and what conditions they are comfortable in. See attachment…Trip and Paddler Classifications…

@string said:
Flotsam, I’ll give you an intermediate +. As you said, beyond novice there is a HUGE group of intermediates.
We know people who have paddled for decades who still can’t roll their kayaks.
The Oscar Chalupskis are pretty rare.
I would define advanced as being able to handle their chosen craft in any set of conditions short of deadly.
Advanced paddlers know when to stay on the beach.

I’ll never be more than an intermediate, and don’t care to be.

Jack L

@JackL said:
I’ll never be more than an intermediate, and don’t care to be.

Jack L

Me neither Jack.

Yippeee, I’m an advanced paddler–at least by String’s criteria. And that should be good enough for most of us. The only thing I would add is that there has to be a time component measured in years and have a comfort zone far, far beyond what you thought you would ever attain.

@pblanc said:
Do you still count as an “experienced paddler” if most of your experiences have been bad?

I think it was Gordon Brown who said:
“Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.”

been thinking a lot about “labels” lately. Part of this is from taking aca instructor training this year and from having worked with a number of beginners . Right now here’s the gospel as I’m currently teaching/preaching it-
“all of us can benefit from basic paddle instruction” as we work to become more efficient, more proficient, and clean up and revisit techniques. So basic paddle instruction is a good thing in my book for just about everybody.

i really struggled with basic paddle strokes because I was largely self taught, I had adapted my strokes- very shallow strokes best suited for rocky creeks. During instructor training the others faired a lot better at being “smooth”, planting more of the paddle in the water, and having “quieter” (less splash) in their strokes. My ww strokes tended to be shorter and choppy end of the spectrum even for ww. Most of the others had formaI lessons at some point while i was more self taught.

I realize there is more that I don’t know than I do know. Meaning that there are still many types of craft and environments that I still haven’t explored. I think what makes me “experienced” is that I have a pretty good sense of my own abilities and manage risks accordingly.

I got my left hip replaced a week ago- so right now I’m in a rehab/no paddling mode. I did kayak class II, III waterand class IV ww (in a raft) up until a week before my surgery. I’ve been pretty banged up for a while now- haven’t rolled for a couple of years but I’ve still manage to have fun, changed my game a bit in the meanwhile- beginner, intermediate, expert- it’s all good as long as I ain’t in too deep over my head…

so to answer the op you will always be a beginner or novice at something if you decide to keep exploring new craft, environment, or paddling styles, What you get better at is bullsh##in’. You might reach a comfort level to where you might try something solo or leading a group. Situational awareness = boater IQ

One big problem I have is that people ‘lie’ about their skills.
I led one 3-day trip up a river to a popular campground.
I thought it was easy but not for first-time people as it was a mile across a lake then 4 miles up a busy river to the Flats for camping.
Joann asked to go and told me that she kayak-camped for years in Alaska.
Odile told me that her teen-daughter went kayaking every weekend with her father.
Hannah said that she was an experienced canoe paddler because she worked for the state checking river gauges.
Every single one of these women lied to me.
Joanne, 3 miles in, confessed that she had NEVER kayak camped but had occasionally driven to a developed campground where she set her tent and did a day-paddle on a calm lake in a borrowed Swifty. She was terrified and overloaded and wanted me to take her back with me hauling all her car-camping gear.
One mile in odile confessed that she ex had bought a kayak but it never left the garage so this was her daughters first time in a boat and Odile had no idea of what to do… I ended up hauling the daughters gear AND towing her the entire trip there and back.
Hannah confessed that she had never canoe-camped, had never kayaked and that she had injured her shoulder the week before and her bf was already a mile ahead.

I have since learned to NEVER trust what someone tells me and to test them BEFORE a trip.

With Shawna & Ken who started this thread, both admitted that they had never paddled. So I took them on a calm lake for a few day-paddles. THEN I took them up and down a local river a couple times. THEN I took them on a couple overnight trips. And only then did I allow them to do the Colorado. But only because I had tested and trained them myself and both were being honest to me.
Today I trust them both but when a couple other members of the local kayak club asked to do a 4-day turkey-day trip, I told each that I’d have to see them on a day trip first and not one showed up for even the pre-trip meeting.

I’m beginning to inter-mediate
how my paddling’s an advanced condition,
of my advancing age
stuck at intermediate page.
Book’s beginning not to come to fruition.

Length of time paddling doesn’t relate directly to skill rating. Just keep that in mind. I know paddlers that have been paddling over 25 years. Yet they still aren’t any good. On the water classes make a big difference. Time paddling not so much.

A lot of beginners don’t know what they can do. They don’t know how far or how fast they paddle. The one thing they should know is to show up. You can’t get better sitting at home.

skill or ability in fellow paddlers isn’t on the top of my list for potential paddling partners-
I do need folks to show up, willingness to help with shuttles is a big plus, and most importantly the feeling that we are looking out for each other- in it together. I guess I like folks that are passionate about paddling regardless of their ability.

Distances can be shortened, goals redefined, finding or waiting for easier conditions or even on other people occurs., Even pulling the plug on a trip are all behaviors that others have done for me . That’s what we do for each other as boaters. See it’s not a one way street. Sometimes we giveth and sometimes we taketh.