MR Guide seating options?

Finally found one of my “grail” boats. Someone was kind enough to bring this one with him when he moved to Idaho from the east…and then stopped using it while raising a family (thanks!). Only paddled it once so far so I’m not about to change anything yet. But I suspect that I might like to have a pedestal in this boat - at least some of the time. Anyone done that with a Guide or Freedom Solo? Any ideas for a solid but removable installation? Other seating ideas that work well on class 2 rivers?

BTW - negative reviews and comments of the Mad River Guide here surely must be from unskilled paddlers, or at least dedicated flatwater boaters. I was actually surprised by how easy it is to make this canoe go where I want…straight or otherwise. And the stability! Of course, my time in the Outrage has probably influenced my perspective.

How long does it take to remove the seat? 10 minutes?

To remove the seat & put in a saddle, I suggest 3 simple suggestions.

  1. Remove seat. Put industrial strength Velcro strip in bilge of canoe, and bottom of saddle.
    Mate up the canoe & saddle strip and apply pressure.You’re good to go.

  2. Remove seat. Put saddle in location you choose. On both sides of the center of the saddle, permanently mount a D ring. Run strap over top of saddle & attach both ends of the the strap to the D rings. Tighten strap. You’re good to go.

  3. Remove seat. Install anchor strips on both sides of saddle. Drill out holes in front & rear of saddle. Put 2 straps that can be hooked into anchor strips through the holes drilled in the saddle.
    Attach strap ends to anchor strip, at a location suitable for you. You can vary the position of the saddle by using the multiple loops on the anchor straps. If I used this method; I’d permanently mount the anchor straps in the canoe. You’re good to go.

If you use either strap method; do cheap.
You can use NRS tie down straps with a little adaptation/ingenuity.



BOB

P,S. I am currently using, or have used all 3 methods described. No problems were encountered using any of the 3 methods. The MR Flashback I outfitted is using the single strap/2 D ring method.

Additional option:

Remove seat/install kneeling thwart…That would probably entail a total of 20 minutes.

I’d mount kneeling thwart hangers to the thwart permanently. Drill holes in gunwales for the thwart hanger screws.

Remove seat; install kneeling thwart. You’re good to go.

I also own one of the grails; an original, Vermont made, Guide.
I agree with you about some of the Guide (bogus) reviews I’ve read.
If you can’t manuever a Mad River Guide on class 2 plus rivers, or paddle a straight course in a Guide;" YOU" need more experience, or more one on one, and/or class instruction.
"Tippy my ass!

The Guide is a great, multi purpose, solo canoe

A friend of mine installed a pedestal in his Yellowstone Solo, but eventually took it out and replaced the seat. Pedestals are definitely safer than having your feet under the seat, but they also limit your seating options, especially if the boat isn’t a dedicated WW boat. Having a removable pedestal solves that problem, but I wouldn’t want it moving around when I was trying to paddle. If Bob says it works I’m sure it does, but it is too much work for me.

In my Yellowstone Solo I raised up the seat with short seat drops (it’s up about 11") and installed knee pads and knee straps, which allow me to lock in pretty well, but still get out if I need to. I have a WW boat that I use for bigger stuff (do you still have the Outrage), so this is for quickwater, class I or easy II. Having the seat is much more comfortable on the flats. With the seat up that high it is less stable to sit (yes, you could say "tippy’), so I kneel on anything squirrelly, which is fine since I kneel most of the time anyway.

Yellowstone Solo

A guy just posted a Freedom Solo in our club classified ad’s for $1,200! Yikes - seems like a lot of money. Then again, I paid $1,000 for a 20-year old, composite Wildfire.

Thanks, Bob & Erik! Much more to think about now. I think I may start with the knee pads and thigh straps and think more about the seat after that. Yes, I still have the Outrage, and plan to keep it for whitewater play. The Guide will be for general river use and tripping (mostly class 2 or less). It fits the gap between the Outrage and the Sojourn perfectly.

I won’t tell you what I paid for it, because it will sound like bragging. :wink: Still can’t believe the shape it is in. Living where I do presents an interesting dynamic when it comes to shopping for used solo canoes. It’s extremely rare to even see one for sale within a half day’s drive. But when you do, the demand for them is so small to nonexistent, that prices are really low (by canoe country standards).

Erik - what is that I see between the knee pads?

@Steve_in_Idaho said:
Erik - what is that I see between the knee pads?

Anchor for the straps with several attachment points. There is one for each strap. In hindsight a D-ring would have been fine since I always use the hole furthest back. It’s more of a knee strap that an thigh strap.

In that particular boat, I would likely go with a kneeling thwart and some glued in knee pads, but I understand that some people don’t care for kneeling thwarts.

I have made removable pedestals for several canoes out of 3" thick minicell foam. The “daisy chain” anchors made by Northwater are a bit pricey and can be hard to find. If you know where you want the pedestal to go you can accomplish the same thing with four 1" nylon D rings to secure the pedestal. You don’t need to buy a specially-designed pedestal either. I just push lengths of appropriately sized PVC pipe through the foam through which two straps pass.

Nylon stretches a bit when wet, as I am sure you know, so it is best to use polypropylene or polyester webbing to secure the pedestal. The straps are secured with typical Fastex nylon side buckles and triglides. If the anchors are placed properly, pedestals secured in this manner might have a very slight degree of wiggle room If that bothers you, it can be eliminated by bonding some 2" wide Velcro to the pedestal bottom and hull bottom to keep the pedestal perfectly aligned.

I have a pedestal in my Yellowstone Solo and only very rarely wish for a seat. Four hours in the saddle is fine (which accounts for most trips.) For an all day paddle or multi-day camping trip, it would be nice to stretch out my legs, but… you gotta pull over and pee once in a while anyway so not a big deal.

@eckilson said:

@Steve_in_Idaho said:
Erik - what is that I see between the knee pads?

Anchor for the straps with several attachment points. There is one for each strap. In hindsight a D-ring would have been fine since I always use the hole furthest back. It’s more of a knee strap that an thigh strap.

I would really like to see some photos showing how you set up your “knee” straps. In the boat I use for whitewater, and it’s mostly more mild whitewater than you often tackle, I’d like to install some straps that are easy to pop out of when used in conjunction with the standard, high slanted seat. Right now I’m using limiting blocks sewn in to a drop-in kneeling pad, and that works pretty well, but I could see taking one additional step to improve upon that.

Thanks, Pete.

Good point about the pee break, Scott.

Yeah, I’m torn, because I really like the pedestal option in a couple other boats, but I also like to be able to put my feet out front while on the bench seat in my Sojourn - especially while fishing. And yeah I like the kneeling thwart I have in the Prospector too - but I’m generally alternating between kneeling and standing in that boat, so it’s not a reliable comparison here.

I have a mini-cell pedestal/pad combination that I use in my seatless poling canoe when I want to paddle it (lives wedged under the yoke when I’m standing) that I can drop in for trial. I’ll put that to use before I decide anything.

I was just reading about how having too many options to choose from complicates life and stifles productivity. Sometimes I think I’d be better off with one general-use solo canoe that I can do most everything that I’m likely to in. But that just raises this seating choice dilemma. The heck with it. I’m keeping them all.

“Sometimes I think I’d be better off with one general use solo canoe.”

Get a grip Steve! That statement makes me cringe, shiver, shake, and gag…




“There is always room for one more canoe”!

BOB

@Steve_in_Idaho said:
The Guide will be for general river use and tripping (mostly class 2 or less).

Tripping - nice to be able to sit…

Crossing Holeb Pond - Erik

or kneel…
Mosquito Rips

@Guideboatguy said:
I would really like to see some photos showing how you set up your “knee” straps.

Not much to it - with the straps…

IMGP6829

With me in the straps…

IMGP6828

Just enough to keep you connected to the boat. I put them in my Yellowstone Solo, but not the composite Wildfire. I couldn’t bring myself to glue anything into the composite boat, so like you I use a drop in kneeling pad.

With the straps so far forward on the knees, it’s pretty easy to come out of the boat - just lean forward and the straps come off. It is one more thing for your foot to get tangled up in, so you do need to be careful. These aren’t exactly quick release straps either - there is a buckle that needs to be unsnapped. I like the set up on my tandem boat better - a single strap through 3 D-rings that attaches with velcro - very easy to adjust or release.

Stern seat with straps and kneepads

TommyC1 tells the story of a trip he did up in ME in his Osprey - somewhere on the Machias. He got pinned in a hole backwards with the current dumping into his lap pushing him back against the seat so he couldn’t get his feet out. He got out eventually, but it is an example of a situation where a pedestal would be much safer than the bench seat.

@thebob.com said:

“There is always room for one more canoe”!

BOB

Such a cool picture, but what are those kayaks doing there.

The BOB clearly is not married. If he is, then he is married to a saint.

@eckilson said:

@thebob.com said:

“There is always room for one more canoe”!

BOB

Such a cool picture, but what are those kayaks doing there.

Perhaps they are placeholders for future canoes. You know how space gets filled with useless paraphernalia if you don’t reserve it somehow.

Relax Bob. The only boat that’s going down the road here is one such placeholder that was only used to confirm that no one here cares much for kayaks.

Looks like that kayak is going to fund an order from Northwater and from Sweets. Then I can move the Guide to that space from its current position in the “shop annex”, which is our sun room.

The BOB was married to his daughter’s mother for about 4 years.
She was half Italian/ half Polish; the result was “hot bloodedness” he could not abide.

In college he met a mellow, farmer’s daughter…
She was very intelligent; he sensed she had “vast potential”.
He was correct; this year we celebrate our 39th anniversary.
Early in our marriage we developed a money plan.
There was our money, her mad money, and my mad money.
She could care less about the number of my canoes; she has a couple of her own.
She paid for hers, I paid for mine: “our” money wasn’t used.

One iron clad rule: no canoes are allowed to linger in her garage parking place.

BOB

@eckilson said:

@Guideboatguy said:
I would really like to see some photos showing how you set up your “knee” straps.

Not much to it - with the straps…

With the straps so far forward on the knees, it’s pretty easy to come out of the boat - just lean forward and the straps come off. It is one more thing for your foot to get tangled up in, so you do need to be careful. These aren’t exactly quick release straps either - there is a buckle that needs to be unsnapped. I like the set up on my tandem boat better - a single strap through 3 D-rings that attaches with velcro - very easy to adjust or release.

TommyC1 tells the story of a trip he did up in ME in his Osprey - somewhere on the Machias. He got pinned in a hole backwards with the current dumping into his lap pushing him back against the seat so he couldn’t get his feet out. He got out of it fine, but it is an example of a situation where a pedestal would be much safer than the bench seat.

Thank you. I don’t see many examples of this sort of thing. I could (and will) look for examples online, but it helps to see what various people have come up with. I’ve thought about the seat issue too, but I don’t do any really hardcore whitewater and I don’t see that changing as I get older, and there are so many paddling situations where kneeling against the seat is still ideal, so I’ll probably leave that part as it is.

I’ll add that I do have a pretty good idea for a quick-release seat which should have exactly the same feel as one that’s attached the normal way, until that moment when an upward force to the seat is applied and it pops free, though tethered to the floor. Total weight of the parts (all parts would be steel since I don’t have the equipment needed to weld aluminum) would be about half a pound. It would take me the better part of a day to build it, and if I ever get into more serious whitewater, perhaps I will. One downside would be that it would no longer be possible to use the seat as a handle when flipping the boat up off the ground or water and onto one’s shoulders.

Actually, in thinking about it a little more, I’ve solved the problem of the seat not being a suitable lifting point. A temporary lock-down is also possible.