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Do any of you apply your GP forward cant stroke?

I am pretty new to using a GP but have been enjoying my experiments with my new Beale paddle.

I am still practicing the forward canted stroke and think I am getting it down pretty well. It definitely feels different and am working to get the feel down so that I can angle the blade just right.

I still prefer a Euro blade most of the time, and like to switch back and forth.

Now that I am getting the feel for the forward cant stroke I found myself canting the blade just a bit on my Euro paddles today (Werner foam core Ikelos and Cyprus). Much to my surprise I found that when the blade was angled right it too would dive in a similar fashion to the GP when using the forward cant stroke, although not nearly as drastically. It actually felt pretty good....smooth without any apparent loss in efficiency (although I did not have enough time on the water to truly judge its efficiency).

Do any of you apply your GP forward cant stroke when using your Euro blade as well?

Would I somehow be achieving less efficiency using this stroke with the Euro blade which was not really intended for this type of presentation?

thanks
HB

Comments

  • When I use a Euro, I find that I unconsciously can't the blade. I also use an unfeathered Euro. Best way for you to tell if canting a Euro makes any difference is to check with a GPS for moving average on flat water with both canted and uncanted strokes.

  • At least some Euros will wobble, or flutter if you try to force them from centering. In theory, the blade should lock into the water and you pull the boat forward. Wouldn't canting the blade hinder the lock?

  • edited June 13

    @magooch said:
    At least some Euros will wobble, or flutter if you try to force them from centering. In theory, the blade should lock into the water and you pull the boat forward. Wouldn't canting the blade hinder the lock?

    I agree that some Euro paddles will flutter if you try to cant them, I've experienced this with several different paddles. My belief is that this is due to unsteadiness of the asymmetric vortex structure over the paddle blade created during the canted stroke. Vortices that are not anchored in a flow field tend to wander around, causing pressure variations that can lead to flutter. In my opinion, some paddles just can't sustain an asymmetric vortex structure, so they tend to wobble, although I have no definitive proof of this.

    I have to disagree with the second part - there is no theory that says a blade can lock into the water while paddling. By definition, a fluid (water or air) is deformed by ANY applied shear force, no matter how small. This means a blade used for propulsion can never lock into a fluid. Forward thrust for the boat is generated by drag on the paddle or a combination of drag and forward thrust (which can be generated with a wing paddle and, in my opinion, by canting a GP or other paddle). The thrust vector also has a lateral component, which is what causes the capsizing moment you feel while using a wing paddle or a canted GP that is generating forward thrust.

    Canting my low-area, asymmetric AT Euro paddle works well and appears to be beneficial. I definitely feel a little of the wing paddle effect when I do this, i.e. a bit of forward thrust from the modified flow over the blade. This paddle has leaf-shaped blades similar in profile to a wing paddle, which I think allows the asymmetric vortex structure to anchor to the paddle effectively. When the cant angle is just right, it feels quite smooth and more powerful than in normal paddling mode. Getting the angle right on a GP is easier, and the effect feels more pronounced in my experience.

    Wayne proposes using a GPS to see if the beneficial effect of canting I felt is real or just perceived, which sounds like an interesting and useful experiment to try.

  • @carldelo said:
    Wayne proposes using a GPS to see if the beneficial effect of canting I felt is real or just perceived, which sounds like an interesting and useful experiment to try.

    Combine it with a heart rate monitor and try to keep your heart rate constant. That way, your speed will only depend on your technique. You can't "cheat" and work harder to offset bad technique, because that will lift the heart rate.

  • Allan, good advise. I find a lot of people do the opposite and just try to get both their heart rate and speed up, which can teach you to flail. Discovering how to increase your speed while keeping heart rate (or cadence) constant can work wonders on developing efficiency.

  • When I used the term "locked", of course I didn't mean it in the way a shovel locks into dirt. However, the intent in paddling is to pull the boat through the water and not to just move water. The paddle I use most isn't likely to take kindly to canting, but I've got some others that I might experiment with. I might even take one of my GPs out and monkey around with it one of these days.

  • Magooch - fair enough - I reacted because there are a fair amount of people out there who think that if they just did things right, they really could make the paddle stick in the water and pull the boat forward like poling a canoe. This bothers me on a deep level...

  • edited June 19

    @carldelo said:
    I have to disagree with the second part - there is no theory that says a blade can lock into the water while paddling. By definition, a fluid (water or air) is deformed by ANY applied shear force, no matter how small.

    ...and I have to say that you are using facts to dispute perfectly good advice.

    It doesn't really matter if the paddle is in reality moving through the water. Of course it is moving through the water to some extent. We all know that.

    What matters is that when you get it right, you get the feel that the paddle is stuck in the water. And that feel is worth pursuing - even if it conflicts with facts.

  • ...and I have to say that you are using facts to dispute perfectly good advice.

    It doesn't really matter if the paddle is in reality moving through the water. Of course it is moving through the water to some extent. We all know that.

    What matters is that when you get it right, you get the feel that the paddle is stuck in the water. And that feel is worth pursuing - even if it conflicts with facts.

    Fair enough, feeling locked in while paddling is something I experience as well, and I agree that this is something to work towards.

    In my post, I wasn't disputing good advice, I was disputing the statement "In theory, the blade should lock into the water..." because it does matter to me that the paddle is moving relative to the water while paddling - and while you and I and Magooch know that, many do not.

  • Recently, I have taken note of just how far through the water my paddle blade does move by watching surface bubbles and small bits of stuff
    in the water. At an average cruising speed, it is surprising how little the blade actually does slip. So the notion that the paddle plants, or locks in isn't that far off. Of course that is going to have something to do with conditions, the boat, the paddle and the paddler.

  • I actually did try canting my blade (Euro paddle) and found at the very least it was awkward and did less than nothing to improve efficiency, speed, or effort required. I'm assuming that "canting" means angling the leading edge of the paddle down--since doing the opposite would, or could lead to a swim. Am I right?

  • Technically, a canted GP is held so the top edge of the blade is tilted forward. http://www.qajaqusa.org/Technique/Strokes.html

    Only way I can hold my GP is canted, as that's how Bill carved it.

    I also tried canting my Werner Cyprus. Screwed up my cadence. The blade plopped into the water sending up spray instead of entering quietly and cleanly. It was an inefficient, unnatural and uncomfortable experience. Maybe it works with a low angle stroke or a different type Euro, but I use a high angle stroke with both paddles, barring strong headwinds.

  • @magooch said:
    At an average cruising speed, it is surprising how little the blade actually does slip.

    Agree. I have been struck by this during night rowing. When paddling in complete darkness, sometimes I am lucky to meet bioluminescence in the water. The water will glow green where disturbed. When I paddle behind someone else, their paddle will leave a small green spot where it disturbed the water - not a line of disturbed water as one would think. This clearly shows that the paddle movement in the water is very limited.

  • @magooch said:
    I'm assuming that "canting" means angling the leading edge of the paddle down--since doing the opposite would, or could lead to a swim. Am I right?

    When you use canted stroke with a GP, you angle it so that it will try to capsize you.

    I read in an article (probably written by Greg Stamer) that the way you counter this force is by doing the upper body rotation around a vertical axis in front of your chest - not around a vertical axis going through your body. This will make you move your centre of gravity to the opposite side of the kayak so you counter the downward force from the canted stroke. I have yet to try this technique (bought my GP 4 days ago and have only used it once, before reading said article).

  • @Allan Olesen said:

    @magooch said:
    At an average cruising speed, it is surprising how little the blade actually does slip.

    Agree. I have been struck by this during night rowing. When paddling in complete darkness, sometimes I am lucky to meet bioluminescence in the water. The water will glow green where disturbed. When I paddle behind someone else, their paddle will leave a small green spot where it disturbed the water - not a line of disturbed water as one would think. This clearly shows that the paddle movement in the water is very limited.

    That sounds amazing, I would like to see that one day. I'm pretty sure the spot you see is a vortex left behind by the paddle. In terms of flow physics, the vortex is created by the shear between the paddle surface and the water, so is evidence of slip. Efficient paddling with minimal slip should create small vortices.

    In daylight, it's normal to see a pair of dimples in the water surface that indicate the location of the vortex after the paddle leaves the water. The rest of the vortex filament is below the surface in a half ring that connects the two dimples. The half ring will have induced velocity aft, which is probably what is disturbing the glowing critters. I'd really like to see that.

  • @carldelo said:

    @Allan Olesen said:

    @magooch said:
    At an average cruising speed, it is surprising how little the blade actually does slip.

    Agree. I have been struck by this during night rowing. When paddling in complete darkness, sometimes I am lucky to meet bioluminescence in the water. The water will glow green where disturbed. When I paddle behind someone else, their paddle will leave a small green spot where it disturbed the water - not a line of disturbed water as one would think. This clearly shows that the paddle movement in the water is very limited.

    That sounds amazing, I would like to see that one day. I'm pretty sure the spot you see is a vortex left behind by the paddle. In terms of flow physics, the vortex is created by the shear between the paddle surface and the water, so is evidence of slip. Efficient paddling with minimal slip should create small vortices.

    In daylight, it's normal to see a pair of dimples in the water surface that indicate the location of the vortex after the paddle leaves the water. The rest of the vortex filament is below the surface in a half ring that connects the two dimples. The half ring will have induced velocity aft, which is probably what is disturbing the glowing critters. I'd really like to see that.

    I saw that today. I was following a paddler across mud bank in a couple of feet of water. His paddle was leaving round spots of swirled mud.
    Looked like stepping Stones following him. Euro paddle.

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