Reading Midtemo’s rescue practice thread and watching the rough water sea kayak rescue video in it, I thought, man, that is a pain to recover from a wet exit, even if everything goes right.
Considering only a small subset of kayakers (referring to all kayakers from 8’ rec boats to Greenland circumnavigation expeditions) actually uses storage hatches regularly. This got me thinking…If you just want to be on the water, safe and easy, (i.e. not for camping) why doesnt everyone buy a stable surfski like a Epic V7 or Nelo 510. Both are plastic and can be bought new for less than $1500. The V7 has a nominal hatch (the V6 has ‘real’ hatches) if you need a little storage too.
I had a moment of clarity when I was bucked off my Stellar SR a couple nights ago in 4’ messy conditions (a couple hundred yards out from a break wall with reflecting waves and bi-directional swell-basically a washing machine). It was my first unintentional capsize, but I got back on my first try with only 1 minor hiccup (leashes slightly tangled together). I mean, I have practiced remounting my surfski probably 100 times over the last month in various conditions, but none as big or messy as capsized me. Still, the remount went surprisingly well.
Considering how fast and easy remounting a ski is, I wonder, if you need minimal or no dry storage, why buy a traditional kayak? Get a beginner surfski! The safety margin is significantly higher, they’re more fun to paddle, and beginner boats are 20-24" wide, so its basically a medium-fast sea kayak stability wise that almost anyone should be able to master quickly. True, you wont find them on Craig’s for $200, but if you are considering sopending several hundred dollars on a rec boat, I highly suggest you test paddle a surfski. They are the funnest boats around, and also provide a great safety margin in all conditions. (but you still have to practice remounting )
If I lived in a climate where the water/air is warm year round, sure, a ski would be my main ride. Preferably an Epic V8. They’re fun, fast…and very wet. But I don’t. I’d lose the opportunity to enjoy magical moments of early winter and late spring, such as paddling in a snowfall or around beautifully shaped mini icebergs as the ice retreats.
I do keep an eye out for a used ski, just to keep on the beach as a go-fast workout boat.
@MCImes said:
Reading Midtemo’s rescue practice thread and watching the rough water sea kayak rescue video in it, I thought, man, that is a pain to recover from a wet exit, even if everything goes right.
Considering only a small subset of kayakers (referring to all kayakers from 8’ rec boats to Greenland circumnavigation expeditions) actually uses storage hatches regularly. This got me thinking…If you just want to be on the water, safe and easy, (i.e. not for camping) why doesnt everyone buy a stable surfski like a Epic V7 or Nelo 510. Both are plastic and can be bought new for less than $1500. The V7 has a nominal hatch (the V6 has ‘real’ hatches) if you need a little storage too.
I had a moment of clarity when I was bucked off my Stellar SR a couple nights ago in 4’ messy conditions (a couple hundred yards out from a break wall with reflecting waves and bi-directional swell-basically a washing machine). It was my first unintentional capsize, but I got back on my first try with only 1 minor hiccup (leashes slightly tangled together). I mean, I have practiced remounting my surfski probably 100 times over the last month in various conditions, but none as big or messy as capsized me. Still, the remount went surprisingly well.
Considering how fast and easy remounting a ski is, I wonder, if you need minimal or no dry storage, why buy a traditional kayak? Get a beginner surfski! The safety margin is significantly higher, they’re more fun to paddle, and beginner boats are 20-24" wide, so its basically a medium-fast sea kayak stability wise that almost anyone should be able to master quickly. True, you wont find them on Craig’s for $200, but if you are considering sopending several hundred dollars on a rec boat, I highly suggest you test paddle a surfski. They are the funnest boats around, and also provide a great safety margin in all conditions. (but you still have to practice remounting )
This is the same revelation I had about surf kayaks about 15 years ago, after some nasty solo swims back in on post winter nor’easter surf sessions. I went to waveskis and wetsuits and never looked back. This also led me to SOTs over SINKs (I only have one left and an unskinned Greenland frame which sits naked for?). With thigh straps on my SOTs, I can roll these as I do with a SINK. But, if I blow it, no big deal. I just clamber back on on my own.
Much of it is as Rookie pointed out - related to water temps and weather. In cooler climes, being inside a sealed boat is much nicer, as that part of your body can warm up and stay mostly dry. On a surf ski or other SOT, your body is exposed to the elements.
The reality is if you are not pushing your skill level and have appropriate boat for your size and skill, the chances of flipping on any day is pretty small. Most club paddlers who I go out with probably don’t flip over even once in the average year, except when they practice rescues. The challenge is newer paddlers, who don’t know what they don’ know and can be inadvertently pushing their skill or equipment level, without knowing it. But most people who get to the point of considering a surf ski instead of a SINK are probably past this point.
Even stable surf skis you really want to be using with a wing paddle, and using one reduces the ability to do things like brace. Makes it more likely to end up in the water than a sea kayak with euro or GP.
And there is an added risk to skis - much easier to get separated from the boat in winds. In a SINK, when you flip, you are attached until you wet exit from the boat. Hopefully you choose to exit and hold at the same time. With a surf ski, when you flip, you start off off the boat and have to actively grab the boat to stay in contact. Lack of deck lines on most skis can make it harder to stay in contact. Was a surf ski racer who lost his boat and had a long swim last year or year before on a practice day for the Columbia Gorge races.
Well why not just learn to roll. Or float upright. Balance brace roll. Your protected from cold water and no need to exit your kayak when flipped. I don’t mean what MOST people learn as a roll. I true greenland roll. Not one that require some massive hip snap and hard push off your euro blade. As that kind of roll will fail. I true greenland roller wont fail.
I like to play around with edging and such and that pretty much requires thigh braces or thigh straps, which our V6 doesn’t have, so I paddle the 16Xand my wife paddles the V6, since she likes to use the rudder.
I’m also not fond of sitting in a puddle of water, which is usually the situation in the V6. We don’t have a plug for the venturi.
I would like to try a playful, but efficient 14’ SOT, though.
I don’t paddle in rough conditions.
Much of the water I paddle in is too shallow for rolling.
The post about self-rescue being easier in a surf ski is correct, and since I have become a solo paddler it is a thought I have had. Not by choice on the solo part. But where I paddle in Maine is literally between locations where more paddlers are likely, and may be one of the friendliest bays to being able to paddle solo relatively safely on this coast. I can often find company in freshwater back home in groups, but still not for all the places I want to paddle before winter arrives.
But the other points are also correct. The water up here is colder than I want to be feeling all the time when I am out for a longer day. So I make other choices, have modified when I paddle to reduce being out in more wind etc and switched my primary boat for solo to one that I know is easier to execute self-rescue in than my other boat. The solo boat is slower, but on most days I can count on a roll on at least the right and a cowboy. Haven’t ever needed either out in the bay, in any boat, but there is always a first time.
Part of this problem is the audience. Newer paddlers who would most profit from the easy remount of a surf ski arrive thinking a 10 or 12 ft rec boat is all the need to spring for. You are rarely going to convince those folks to look at a surf ski. Older farts like me often have enough boats around that, should solo become the mode, there is one in the basement or the garage that will serve well.
I would like to try a playful, but efficient 14’ SOT, though.
I don’t paddle in rough conditions.
Much of the water I paddle in is too shallow for rolling.
If you are under 175 lbs, the RTM Disco fits the bill for a fun 14’ SOT
“Rough” conditions is a subjective judgement. Stuff I consider mild others think it’s rough. Stuff I think is crazy, better boaters think is a doable challenge.
I am pretty lazy and don’t like remounting a boat unless I have too. I’ve rolled in 1.5’ of water where I was literally scrunched on the deck and the back of my head (helmet) is scraping bottom. BTW, the RTM Disco rolls nicely with thigh straps.
Most paddlers will never paddle where there is much of a chance of capsizing from the elements (extremely rough water); not even from waves caused by power boats. ships, or whatever. That is, once you get used to your boat and have a ton of experience in all kinds of conditions.
I have been paddling for a very long time and have only been dumped once by a breaking wave that threw me onto the beach–upside down. The recovery from that was to get out from under the boat and stand up. Previous to that, there were some dumps while paddling a very tippy canoe. In my sea kayaks, there were a few times when I thought for sure I would be swimming from combinations of waves that looked like there was no way out, but the boats and a couple of braces would always keep me upright.
Then there are boats like the CD Sirocco that will get you back up with no effort at all if you just remain seated and lean back–no paddle required. In fact, the first time this happened, my paddle was out of reach and the boat flipped up so fast that my head never touched the water and I had just started to lay back. I didn’t even have a skirt on.
The majority of my paddling in daunting conditions are in my NC Expedition sea kayak, which is 19’-2"–not a ski, but it is fast. Like any boat, it took a lot of experience in the slop to get me to the point where I have complete confidence that the boat will handle absolutely anything that I am likely to blunder into. I’m not saying that self-rescue is a non-issue, but I believe that most seasoned kayakers will seldom have to deal with it.
I would like to try a playful, but efficient 14’ SOT, though.
I don’t paddle in rough conditions.
Much of the water I paddle in is too shallow for rolling.
If you are under 175 lbs, the RTM Disco fits the bill for a fun 14’ SOT
“Rough” conditions is a subjective judgement. Stuff I consider mild others think it’s rough. Stuff I think is crazy, better boaters think is a doable challenge.
I am pretty lazy and don’t like remounting a boat unless I have too. I’ve rolled in 1.5’ of water where I was literally scrunched on the deck and the back of my head (helmet) is scraping bottom. BTW, the RTM Disco rolls nicely with thigh straps.
If you are under 175 lbs, the RTM Disco fits the bill for a fun 14’ SOT
sing
It looks enticing, and I’ve considered it previously, but I’m pretty much sticking to boats 40 lbs or less these days. The heaviest boat that I use much at all is the 44 lb royalex Wenonah Sandpiper solo canoe.
If you are under 175 lbs, the RTM Disco fits the bill for a fun 14’ SOT
sing
It looks enticing, and I’ve considered it previously, but I’m pretty much sticking to boats 40 lbs or less these days. The heaviest boat that I use much at all is the 44 lb royalex Wenonah Sandpiper solo canoe.
That pretty much leaves you with kevlar/carbon canoes or SOF crafts. Ain’t many 14’ boats that are sub 40lbs…
As I cartop my SOTs, I feel better when I remind myself to “use it or lose it…” (my upper body, and core muscles). LOL!
I guess I paddle differently than most, in that I capsize semi-often (usually doing somethig intentionally stupid), as in multiple times per year, but I am a wave junkie wherever I am. I’ve paddled my J200 solo canoe in 2’ waves on LIS and chased ski boat wakes in a 3x27 pro class canoe all over MN. Now that I’m on the west coast the pacific is my new playground. I guess I have developed a great appreciation for surfskis because the worse the conditions are, the better the boat performs, and when you are in the water, its reassuring to know its no big deal. (that is, as long as you always have a leg leash and possibly paddle leash, unless in the surf, and you have practiced remounting).
Although a wing paddle is standard in a ski, there’s no reason at all you cant paddle with a Euro or greenland for that matter.
Yes, your legs get wet, but I guess I just expect that. I have a drysuit for cold weather and neoprene for cool temps, or just swimming shorts for warm water. There are some times, typically shoulder seasons, that you’re likely to be too warm or too cold, but for the most part I can paddle in temps from 30 to 100* and be relatively comfortable.
I think the perception is that surfskis are specialized boats meant for racing or fitness, which historically has been very true. But now with true beginner skis like the S14S (14’ x 25") or S16S (16’ x 23") is just an average short/medium length kayak with a sit on top design. It can be paddled the same as any other boat, no special paddle or racing intent needed.
So I guess that’s my point; surfskis have begun offering something new, an approachable beginner boat, that no longer requires exceptional balance, special paddles, or competitive spirit and I dont think the perception has changed with the new boat offerings. if you’re looking at a high quality beginner boat, the aforementioned boats (and probably other similar boats I forgot) should be in your consciousness.
@Yanoer can I lure you into surfski-land with the Stellar S14S, S16S, S18S, and Epic V5, V6 - all are available in 25-35lb layups and not much different than a standard kayak
“Well why not just learn to roll. Or float upright. Balance brace roll. Your protected from cold water and no need to exit your kayak when flipped. I don’t mean what MOST people learn as a roll. I true greenland roll. Not one that require some massive hip snap and hard push off your euro blade. As that kind of roll will fail. I true greenland roller wont fail.”
What I would add:
What I have found is that once you get some dexterity with the GP it doesn’t matter if you keep your head down or if you ‘snap’ anything or if you come up on the left or right side. I’ll admit… it takes practice… but practice is fun.
Someone on PNet once said the key to mastering the GP was to ‘move the paddle back and forth in the water… repeat a thousand times.’
edit: It was JayBabina! I looked it up.
Once you get the GP to bite/grab/lift the way it’s designed to, rolling and bracing get really easy and fun.
@MCImes:
We have an Epic V6. My wife paddles it. It’s a first generation with a non-retractable rudder, so only my wife paddles it. I like the option of not using the rudder. It is a very efficient and easy to paddle boat and easy to mount and dismount for stiff people and very stable, which are the reasons that it works well for my stiff, out of condition and non-swimming wife.
I paddle the Epic 16X in which I rarely use the rudder. I like playing around edging the boat.
An oldish topic, but here’s my take on “why not more surfskis”. What I found in my own experience, starting off in a ski, even a stable one may be fairly painful. When I got my sea kayak, first time out I just hopped in and paddled away. In a ski you need to develop proper posture since there’s absolutely nothing in a way of back support. Leg length, forward lean and some semblance of proper stroke are all quite important to be able to enjoy it.
But it all works out with a little bit of commitment. I much prefer a ski bucket to any form of kayak seat. No butt pain or numbness that I was getting in a kayak,
Also, you pretty much need a wing paddle to get the best of it. In a ski your paddle blades are a stability device,
Balance-wise they are also more demanding even so called stable ones. Perhaps V5s are super-duper stable, but a V7 is more of a tippy kayak than a stable kayak. All things included if I was given a kayak and a V7 to test paddle and make an unbiased newbie choice I would paddle away in a kayak. After seat time in a ski there’s no going back.
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