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I am not absolutely loving my new WS Pungo 120 - What am I doing wrong?

I will admit that I am pretty new to kayaking seriously and really just got into it this summer. I had always borrowed kayaks in the past and I will now admit those ones were just cheap junk although I didn't know any better at the time. I had a trip come up and I wanted to go but only had 4 days to get ready and no kayak to borrow. I ended up deciding to buy one. I considered just buying a cheap Sun Dolphin or Pelican but know you get what you pay for so wanted something better. I bought the best sit in that money could buy without me having to drive 100 miles to buy a better model. That was an Old Town Vapor 10 Angler from the new Academy Sports in town. I will admit that I didn't do much research but this came from a known name so I went for it because I didn't have much time to prepare. I also ended up with a 240cm store brand paddle.

This combination seemed to suit me just fine. I have no real problem with it but decided I wanted something longer and with a dry hatch for overnight trips. I ended up with a demo model Pungo 120 that a friend snagged for me from his outdoor retail store. I bought it for a decent discount and thought I was doing well. I also bought a shorter paddle based on suggestions of those here. I thought it was a 230cm but it ended up being a 220cm once I looked at it in detail.

I have taken the Pungo out twice with the 220cm paddle. It still feels awkward even with the shorter paddle. It just feels that my elbows are under stress while paddling with the 240cm paddle in the Vapor feels easy and natural. I tried the 240cm paddle from the Vapor on the Pungo and it was certainly not any better. I am almost wondering if the 220cm is too long for me on this boat. It sits 4-5 inches lower in the water than the Vapor so maybe I need a shorter paddle than 220cm. Does this sound like a possibility? I am a high angle paddler as well.

I am definitely keeping the Vapor as a spare or backup but am wondering if maybe there is something about the WS Pungo that just doesn't fit me or if there is a way to make this work. I definitely would like to make it work if that is possible but would also consider a different boat if that is what it takes. I just don't feel natural or at home in this boat the way I do the Vapor 10. I find it funny that a boat that I basically bought on a whim with a random store brand paddle I just grabbed seems to fit me better than something I researched and paid quite a bit more money for.

I love the speed and tracking of the Pungo but my elbows are sore as I type this. I wanted to upgrade to the Pungo to get a longer boat with more storage and a dry hatch as well as the better tracking. If this doesn't end up working, what are some other options for a good overnight boat? Of course there is an Old Town Vapor 12 XT which is just a longer version of what I have. Then there is the Old Town Loon 106 or 120 which is their more premium recreational boat. Of course I don't have to be stuck on Old Town but this is what has worked for me.

Any suggestions are welcome and I certainly don't want to make a rash decision about selling this one and buying another but I will do that if that is what it takes to get one that works for me.

Thanks,

Conor

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Comments

  • Something clicked as I was laying there at night thinking. I think my seat may be too far forward and it is causing extra stress on my elbows. I will check this out later when I have more time and let everyone know.

  • Your probably better off getting some paddling lessons rather than a new boat. If you elbows are hurting you're probably doing something wrong.

  • edited September 17

    Nearly impossible to tell without a video. But agree with Grayhawk. Elbows are an unusual joint to hurt. Best to start with getting eyeballs on your form.

  • check these out and see if any apply . I doubt it is the boat. I have a hunch you are trying very hard now that you have expectations of a faster boat and any poor technique you got away with before in the slow boat is now biting you. https://www.canoekayak.com/skills/how-to-avoid-elbow-and-wrist-tendonitis-for-paddlers/

  • Total noobs here also--- fortunately haven't had any ill effects from paddling.

    My paddling and lifelong partner in mayhem has bad joints (shoulders, elbows and back) from sitting in a car in the passenger side, delivering mail for 35 years. He finds that paddling actually helps with his overall comfort level as long as he is doing that twisty torso move. We try to advise each other when/if we notice the other not rotating the torso on a stroke. Doing so also seems to help with speed. There are times of course, where we are just drifting and any stroke is really more of a directional thing.

    Some place on here(I think here) was a video or 3 about the subject.

  • One suggestion is don't get hung up on "high angle" paddling. Relax a little, let your arms bend a bit and rotate. You might find it easier to maintain torso rotation if you concentrate more on pushing the blade that is out of the water. You will naturally pull the blade in the water without thinking about it. The worst thing you can do is to slouch--sit up straight.

    A lower angle has the benefit of being able to lengthen the stroke without lifting water. In time, you will find what works the best for you and your body will adjust to it. Don't expect it to happen overnight--it might take years.

  • Very likely a paddling technique problem and possibly the onset of tendinitis. Elbow pain is common in those performing repetitive motions on a single joint over a period of time. Some things to reduce strain on the elbow.

    • paddle from the hips, not the shoulders. Grab the paddle at shoulder width and move it by twisting at the waist, not by pulling/pushing on the paddle with the arms.

    • relax the grip on the paddle - you do not need to hold the paddle forcefully, just enough to keep it in control - relax to the point where you are holding it too loosely and just add sufficient force to hold it, not strangle it.

    • to enhance power with the hips, press with the offside foot/knee (right foot when paddle is on the left side and vice versa) against (whatever) foot ped/thigh strap is available in the boat
    • paddle length can be a factor, but it is not as likely - still a long paddle is like starting from a standing start on a bicycle in too high a gear - it takes a lot of force to get going and all that force is provided by the body, potentially causing stress injuries

    With luck, this will mitigate any injury you are doing to your forearm.

    Rick

  • Agree that a lesson or two would be helpful. Not always easy to arrange so in the interim, here's a link to site which has a well organized approach to the basics, including technique tips and common mistakes. https://www.nswseakayaker.asn.au/index.php/homepage/basic-skills

  • One thing you may want to do is reduce the number of changes. You changed both boat and paddle at some time. How about either using new paddle with old boat, or old paddle with new boat, and see how that goes?

    My gut says that the paddle is more likely the issue than the boat, but this is a WAG.

  • I have arthritic joints and very sensitive elbows. They never hurt when I paddle my Pungo, or my other boats.
    Peter has a good point about too many changes at once. Your body has to adapt to unfamiliar stress and movements.
    It could be the way you are paddling. Do you understand what it means that your forward stroke should be a push, not a pull? Are you keeping your wrists as straight as possible?
    And maybe, your paddle is too wide.
    I strongly suspect it ain't the boat.
    My Pungo has been paddled by children, and mature people of both sexes with no issues.

  • I too suspect poor paddling technique. Your elbows shouldn't really come into the equation.

    And you should be sitting bolt upright so you can best rotate your torso. You should also be keeping your arms as straight as you can. Look up some videos on the forward paddle stroke, or even better take some lessons.

    Here's a good start for video instruction...

    https://paddling.com/learn/the-kayak-forward-stroke/

  • My elbows are always part of the equation, since they are between my shoulders and my wrists. Power to my paddle can only get from my legs to my paddle through all of the joints and muscles in between.

    Proper technique and proper sized paddle (both length and blade shape/size for paddle) make a huge impact on my paddling comfort.

    It took me a couple years and several paddle models and lengths to find what works best for me.

  • I am going to look through all this before my next trip. I have had a lot on my mind lately with work and think my seat may be too far forward. I will make this simple adjustment and compare it to the Old Town stored right next to it.

    I have paddled 20 miles in one day in the old boat and close to that several times. I woke up the next day feeling like I could do this all over again the next day. These couple trips were both 4 miles. I woke up feeling I should wait a week before even considering another trip.

    The old paddle is WAY too long as suggested by others in another thread. It is great for the Old Town Vapor but not this. The 220cm is definitely a step in the right direction.

    I will look over everything and see if there is anything glaring. I really think I made a simple oversight and have my seat adjusted wrong but will report back.

    Conor

  • I don't understand the seat comment but the Phase 3 seat is very adjustable so I hope it helps.
    I have had many seat issues with several boats, but never my elbows.

  • The first couple of times out in my Skylark, I was thinking it may have been a mistake. Took a number of short/longer paddles to figure out where I like the seat back , foot pegs even how I snug the straps on the PFD and how it fit with the seat back.

  • Well, now I guess I've been doing it all wrong for all these years. I don't keep my arms straight and I don't push on the off-side foot. Oh well--it's probably too late to change now.

  • I may have some free time today so will mess with the seat some. I got the kayak a little over a week ago and was dealing with all kinds of stress and nonsense with work. I had one of those crazy as a loon customers I had to deal with along with law enforcement and the courts as well because of this nut. I feel stupid for overlooking the seat. Yeah, it feels pretty nice. I think it was just leaning too far forward and forcing my elbows to bend at a strange angle.

    The foot pegs are adjusted properly. They were so far out when I got it that this couldn't be overlooked.

    I will look into my paddling style if the seat adjustment doesn't work. I really don't think that is the issue, especially since I have had zero issues with this in my other kayak on long trips. I was also paddling pretty much nonstop at a pretty good speed for about half of one of those long trips. We were running out of daylight and realized we had 10 miles to go so pretty much did the rest of that trip at a sprint. My elbows felt fine during and after this.

    Conor

  • It's usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that's on the same side as the blade that's in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren't Frankenstein straight, but "broken" (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably "arm paddling" rather than "twisting" and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.

    Greg

  • @gstamer said:
    It's usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that's on the same side as the blade that's in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren't Frankenstein straight, but "broken" (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably "arm paddling" rather than "twisting" and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.

    Greg

    Wow! Thank you Greg; you have restored and validated what I thought I had worked on and believed was working so well. You have saved me a ton of introspection.

  • Maybe try using it more to check if you're really feel uncomfortable with it. Then decide after a week if you really want to purchase a new one and sell it.

  • @magooch said:

    @gstamer said:
    It's usually taught that you press with the leg/foot that's on the same side as the blade that's in the water. This helps you rotate and provides the power. Elbows aren't Frankenstein straight, but "broken" (some bend). If your elbows bend right away then you are probably "arm paddling" rather than "twisting" and using the power in your core and legs. Have someone take a look at your stroke. You might just need to adjust your footrest, or might need to change your technique. Too many unknowns without seeing a video.

    Greg

    Wow! Thank you Greg; you have restored and validated what I thought I had worked on and believed was working so well. You have saved me a ton of introspection.

    Not to mention some $ .

  • I have had some time to take this out more and adjusted the seat. This was DEFINITELY the problem without question. I also had to move the foot pegs back a tad as the seat positioning had me leaning far enough forward that this was a concern as well. It took me a while to get things perfect but in the end I wasn't putting undue stress on my elbows anymore.

    That being said, there are still some things about this boat that I am not 100% sure about. I think part of the issue is the stream I have been taking it on. https://fllog.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/float-65-little-piney-creek/ This is about 3 miles from where I live so I tend to go there quite often. You also don't have to worry about the drunken party crowd that other larger and more popular streams tend to attract. This kayak tracks well and is definitely faster but the Old Town Vapor 10 is probably a better boat for this stream. I found myself dragging quite a bit in the Pungo compared to the Vapor. There was also more water this trip but it seemed like I got stuck on any little rock. Again, I am probably using the wrong boat for this stream. The Vapor also turns a lot better on the tight corners and obstructions you commonly find on this stream. It is a more challenging stream but it is very pretty and you don't have to deal with the weekend warriors because it is more challenging. I need to take this kayak out on a larger river and I think I will find the tracking to be a nice feature.

    The other issue is the space. Again, I think I am taking one of the features of this kayak (narrower so faster and tracks better) into a negative. The space in the Vapor is a lot more usable for the most part but it doesn't have a dry hatch. I figure I could always put more rigging on the rear and have more cargo on top of the dry hatch as there is a nice flat area. If course there is also room on the front but it isn't as usable as what is on the rear.

    I also bought a flotation bag for the front of this kayak which takes away a lot of the forward storage inside the kayak as well. The Vapor comes with some cheap foam insert and you can still slide anything long or narrow down either side of this. That being said, this setup is really cheesy and the foam is as cheap as it comes. I guess you expect compromises on certain things with this being one of Old Town's most economical boats.

    The other thing is that this is just not a perfect fit for me for some reason. I can't place the exact issue and maybe some of it is the initial bias I had and the fact I was dealing with a nutcase customer at work as well. It just seems like I feel more comfortable in the Vapor. The shorter paddle definitely helps but that isn't the only thing. I am definitely going to hang onto this kayak for the time being and see if it grows on me. It is also end-of-season so selling it now would be a mistake. I think selling next spring if I decide to do so would be my best move.

    I definitely want to keep my eyes open for a possible replacement and am happy to hear suggestions. I would want a 12' class boat with decent space for overnight storage. Of course there is the Vapor 12 XT which is just a longer version of my Vapor 10 and has a dry hatch. Then there is the Loon 120 and 126. I am not sure how big of a deal that extra 6 inches is but they are basically the same price. The Loon has been suggested to me by others so I would like to try one out. This is also a common boat so they may come up on the used market. Then there is the Dirigo which also appears to be pretty common.

    I always keep an eye on Craigslist and FB Marketplace for kayaks in case a really good deal comes up. I have seen some pretty fair deals but for the most part the used boats are being sold for significantly higher prices than new. I don't know if any of these actually sell but everything seems to be drastically overpriced and this isn't just kayaks. I figure around Christmas shopping season people may dump kayaks cheap needing quick money. The problem is that they are probably going to be the basic cheap boats from big box stores (Sun Dolphin, Pelican, etc.) and not what I am looking for. The other issue is all the drama and nutcases you find on online sale sites these days. This seems to be getting worse and I almost think you are better off paying full price rather than deal with some of these people.

    Conor

  • Regarding that maneuverability issue, my first thought would be that no one who starts out paddling has much of a clue how to maneuver effectively, and that is probably true for you. I would wager that your Pungo will "turn" a lot better than you are aware right now (I hate words like "turn" and "steer" because they imply a very limited set of possibilities in terms of how to accomplish tight maneuvers - which is exactly the problem most average boaters actually have). You may do better in a more maneuverable boat, but don't dismiss the idea that you can probably make this current boat run rings around itself if comparing beginner's skills with better skills.

  • Huh, I don't know where you live but I have been buying and selling used kayaks and canoes (as well as household items and cars) for ten years, mostly via Craigslist, and have never encountered a "nut case".

    Question: why are you limiting yourself to 12' boats if you intend to do overnight touring and want more cargo space? Boats 14' and up generally have dual cargo hatches. You already have a short boat to use on shallow winding streams, why not upgrade to something that has more utility? I have always been able to find decent 14' to 17' used touring kayaks for $500 or less via Craigslist.

  • That is probably true. I spent about the 1st half of this trip yesterday tweaking and tuning the seat and foot peg settings. That is why I am not in a rush to do anything rash in regards to replacing this. I want to make sure that I really want to replace it before doing anything rash. I am sure the issues with my first two trips have skewed my opinion of this as well.

    The thing appealing about the Old Town Loon is that it is naturally buoyant because of whatever 3 layer construction they use. These get really good ratings by users for a recreational boat but are definitely towards the heavier end of things. This isn't a big deal but something to consider. No front flotation is required because of this construction so the forward part of the hull is available for storage of dry bags, things you don't mind getting wet stored loose, etc.

    The reasons I am kinda wanting to stick with a 12 foot class boat are several. 1. Storage: I am setup pretty well for storing a 10-12 footer but a 14 footer might be a little more of an issue. I know I could make this work so this is the least of my concerns. 2. Transport: I think that this would be a big issue as I don't have a good setup for transporting one this long. I would probably have to buy a trailer which I could do but that just adds complexity to the trips and shuttling as one would have to make an extra trip to retrieve the trailer. On longer trips the shuttle time can be an hour or more one way because of all the backroads and the fact that the river distance is considerably shorter than the driving distance. The last thing I want to have to do is make an extra run for a trailer. 3. The rivers we usually do. I usually do shallow rocky bottom spring fed streams of the Missouri Ozarks. The Little Piney is a special case and a tad more challenging than most but still think a 14 footer might be a tad longer than ideal for many of the streams around here. These are the reasons I would prefer a 12 foot class. Again, maybe a 14 footer would be fine.

    As for online sale sites, I have had my share of issues. I live in the Ozarks of Missouri which are home to some great kayaking streams such as the Current, Eleven Point, and Jacks Fork Rivers. The Little Piney (one three miles from me) is like a miniature version of these streams. The downside to the Ozarks is that many the stereotypes about people being on meth, opiods, and the like are true. Drugs are a big problem. You also end up with lots of people on government assistance. I also own my own business so am exposed to the general public on a daily basis. I actually have helped reduce issues by marketing towards a more affluent and educated demographic.

    I think Craigslist is probably a step up from FM Marketplace but still haven't seen any deals on kayaks yet. There was a funny one a month or so back being passed around the local kayak groups..... Someone was selling a pair of Sun Dolphin Aruba 10's for $850. These are $125 at Wal-Mart. Stuff like this is very common on FB Marketplace. There was an $80 TV from Wal-Mart that took a few minutes to warm up and turn on, then there were lines on the screen for a few minutes after that. They wanted $400 for it. You also have to deal with people who want what you have but don't have the money to pay for it. I think FB Market is where the issues come from for the most part. You also have the antisocial people who will not call and just waste tons of time but never follow through. I only accept phone calls now for this reason and that filters that nonsense out.

    I had some real dandies this summer. Part of this was that I was selling off some project or fixer upper type stuff that still had value but needed work to be made serviceable. I have pretty much come to realize that selling stuff like this is going to attract more nuts.

    Conor

  • You talk about carrying capacity. Why not a canoe?
    Sorry if that has been addressed.

  • Cwatkin, I think you should give the Pungo more time. I agree with the suggestion that you might do better with a 14-footer. You would have more capacity for gear, and a 14-footer can be made to turn well enough for twisty streams that are not too pushy. But if you limit your gear to the same degree you might as a backpacker - or close to that - you can do multi-night trips in the 12' Pungo.

    As to your comparison with the Vapor 10....

    The shorter boat will likely turn easier, all else being equal. It will also not track as well, again, all else being equal. Since I haven't been around any 10' Vapor I am aware of, I can't say whether all else is equal in this case, but the important thing to know is that skill will make the difference less of an issue - or possibly not an issue at all.

    As far as the dragging in shallows...
    Again, I'm not familiar with the Vapor, but if it has flatter bottom, it may be less prone to dragging on shoals. But it is also true that different levels of flow change the river in sometimes unexpected ways. That is another reason you need more time in the boat.

    In case I didn't already mention it - the 12' Pungo is one of the more popular recreational kayaks around here for small meandering streams (I know several owners personally). And it is similar to the 12' Wilderness Chesapeake my wife paddles. It is based on that and my own experience in the Chesapeake that I am confident in the fact that the 12' Pungo can be easily made to maneuver well in tight and twisty non-pushy streams.

    All that having been said - I am also wondering the same thing String asks......why not a canoe? If your waters are the typical class 1 streams in which recreational kayaks are suitable, a canoe may be even more suitable......with the added benefit that it is easier to get in and out when working around shoals.

  • Oh, BTW - the 3 layer construction of some of the Old Town kayaks keeps the empty swamped boat from sinking to the bottom, but doesn't help much in any kind of rescue. Without bulkheads fore and aft, you still need added flotation to be safe in in any conditions that might induce a swamp.

  • edited October 8

    It seems that you misunderstand the purpose of flotation bags and also are confused about the "buoyancy" of the Loon. The purpose of inflation bags is to displace water from filling the hull in a capsize, which is what bulkheaded hatches do in higher quality short and nearly all longer boats.

    The Loon is going to fill just as full as any boat made of ANY material that is the same size. I don't know where you got that odd notion but there is nothing magical (or "naturally buoyant") about the material that they use for their hull. In fact the Loon will swamp and either sink or at least be unmanageable to re-enter in deep water when full of water. The 3 layer poly is for strength, not buoyancy. The Loon is no more "buoyant" than any other open-hulled rec boat and it will become a lead weight when full of water, especially since it is such a wide and deep barge of a boat.

    Just saying, it would be an error to base any preference for the Loon on a complete misunderstanding about "buoyancy".

  • @cwatkin said:
    2. Transport: I think that this would be a big issue as I don't have a good setup for transporting one this long. I would probably have to buy a trailer which I could do but that just adds complexity to the trips and shuttling as one would have to make an extra trip to retrieve the trailer.

    I don't see the problem with this one. I used to paddle with a friend who regularly carried a 17' boat on his Mini. There are more extreme examples of this, I'm sure.

    If (and I recognize this has yet to be determined) you aren't happy with what a short boat has to offer, you need to make some concessions and get creative to enjoy a long boat. There's no way to make the short one perform the same.

  • edited October 8

    Yes, I agree with Sparky. A friend of mine used to transport her daughter's 21' long surf ski on top of a SmartCar. ( I do have to admit it looked like a shark humping a watermelon.) And I carry a 15' and 18' kayak on the roof of my small Mazda wagon all the time. Longer boats can be narrower and still have enough displacement (volume displacement is what creates buoyancy) and are a lot easier to load on roof racks than short fat boats.

  • This is all good information. I am definitely going to give the WS Pungo 120 some more time. As mentioned, I think I have decided to take it out the first few times on a stream more suited to a rec boat that can turn on a dime like the Vapor. Yes, the Vapor has a flatter bottom and doesn't track nearly as well as the Pungo on open stretches. I think using the Vapor for this stream, especially the upper parts, will be my plan from now on. I am sure I will enjoy the Pungo a lot more once I take it on a more suitable river.

    The reasons for me looking at a Loon are because of an overall first good impression with another Old Town product as well as the fact this one and the Pungo are rated well with some preferring the Loon. It looks to be more of a "barge" as described which is what the Vapor basically is as well.

    I was unaware that the 3 layer construction wasn't for buoyancy. Yeah, I know having to recover a swamped boat isn't a lot of fun no matter what and this would be a larger boat than my Vapor 10 so become even more of a lead weight. Has anyone here ever been in a swamping situation on a Loon or not? I am just curious. The models I looked at at least had a rear dry hatch as well. I did just find some reviews that indicate it will stay floating but just below the surface. Many suggested the use of empty soda or other plastic bottles in mesh bags if you don't like the intrusiveness of float bladders to displace water. I have put scraps of foam board insulation into some cheaper kayaks as well because they come with NOTHING. I figure this is what I will do when the cheesy factory floatation comes out of my Vapor 10.

    For the most part I go with a group of people who all have 10-12 ft class kayaks. We transport them in the beds of pickup trucks. I know canoes and longer kayaks can hold more but I don't want to be the odd man that brings a difficult kayak to transport. This wouldn't be a problem on my local stream as I have the 10 ft Vapor but could be an issue on the longer trips where other people are involved.

    As for the secondary market, I am sure that a Loon would be a lot easier to find than a Vapor 12. I have never seen a Vapor 12 anywhere except on websites while the Vapor 10 appears to be the basic line of Old Town at all the big box sporting goods stores and such so they are EVERYWHERE.

    I wouldn't buy another 10 ft kayak as I have the Vapor 10 as well as a cheapo spare that I might or might not sell. It is always good to have an extra for when that friend without a kayak wants to go at the last minute. I would definitely at least like to try out a Loon 120 or 126 because they look like nice boats. Again, I am not in any huge hurry and figure the Pungo might grow on me after the initial growing pains.

    Conor

  • If turning your boat is your main problem, learn to do an angled bow rudder and lean away from your turn. Stern rudderIng is a waste of inertia

  • edited October 10

    Don't use foam board in kayaks!! It absorbs water and is therefore not only useless but a hazard. You have to use closed cell dense foam like minicell. It is similar to the stuff used in "pool noodles" and those solid blocks used for yoga supports (you can often find those blocks pretty cheap in the women's sports and workout wear department of places like TJ Maxx and they can be cut with a sharp steak knife to shape them).

    You can cut pool noodles (way cheap) and bundle them together with zip ties or duct tape to create void filler in the hull spaces in rec kayaks. Having just a stern bulkhead is almost as bad as having none as it can result in the difficult (and embarassing) "Cleopatra's Needle" effect when the bow sinks and the stern floats. As in this linked infamous video (time point 0:45) of a guy who swamps his Pungo.

    The foam blocks that come under the decks in open hull rec boat kayaks are mostly to keep the decks from collapsing when they are all stacked in the shipping containers coming from China. Those blocks are really not "flotation".

  • Pungos are made in Greenville, SC.

  • The grey things come from China?

  • @grayhawk said:
    The grey things come from China?

    No idea.

  • Maybe from Canada. They are evil too, right?

  • @Celia said:
    Maybe from Canada. They are evil too, right?

    Must be where I got my dark side. Canadian grandmother.

  • @Celia said:
    Maybe from Canada. They are evil too, right?

    100%

  • some boats you hang on to, some you deal away, I usually want to log somewhere around 50 paddle trips before I write off a boat. I'm not worried about the reputation, stats, or what others think. Is it fun for me? All boats have good and bad points. The boats I've dealt away the quickest I had spent quite a bit of time swimming.

  • edited October 12

    @willowleaf said:
    Don't use foam board in kayaks!! It absorbs water and is therefore not only useless but a hazard. You have to use closed cell dense foam like minicell. It is similar to the stuff used in "pool noodles" and those solid blocks used for yoga supports (you can often find those blocks pretty cheap in the women's sports and workout wear department of places like TJ Maxx and they can be cut with a sharp steak knife to shape them).

    You can cut pool noodles (way cheap) and bundle them together with zip ties or duct tape to create void filler in the hull spaces in rec kayaks. Having just a stern bulkhead is almost as bad as having none as it can result in the difficult (and embarassing) "Cleopatra's Needle" effect when the bow sinks and the stern floats. As in this linked infamous video (time point 0:45) of a guy who swamps his Pungo.

    The foam blocks that come under the decks in open hull rec boat kayaks are mostly to keep the decks from collapsing when they are all stacked in the shipping containers coming from China. Those blocks are really not "flotation".

    I'll admit that I find his reaction more than disturbing than the "needle" itself. If that were a more challenging venue, that guy would be a hazard to himself and his partner with that attitude. If he were a drowning victim, you would have to knock him out first to save him.

    Being unprepared and ignorant to dangers can happen to anyone, and one learns from it. Being whiny is usually a deeply inculcated characteristic (flaw) that infuses the default reaction to anything slightly adverse...

    sing

  • I always thought Sarah and friend staged that video.

  • Ironically, it was the Perception sales rep who told us that the foam pillars were to support the deck (and not really for "flotation") back in the late 1970's when I managed an outfitter who was a Perception dealer! Back then the boats for our stock were often delivered to us individually via UPS.

    It's long been my understanding that is the function of foam blocking in WW kayaks, to protect against the deck crushing or entrapping the paddler's legs in a pinning situation.

    I'll gladly stand corrected if anybody has facts to offer.

  • @Steve_in_Idaho said:
    I always thought Sarah and friend staged that video.

    I hope it's a put-on, tho' I have met a few folks who are almost that whiny... :/

  • @sing said:

    @Steve_in_Idaho said:
    I always thought Sarah and friend staged that video.

    I hope it's a put-on, tho' I have met a few folks who are almost that whiny... :/

    B)

  • @sing said:

    @Steve_in_Idaho said:
    I always thought Sarah and friend staged that video.

    I hope it's a put-on, tho' I have met a few folks who are almost that whiny... :/

    Well, if not - Sarah ain't much help. I think she was enjoying it. ;)

  • @Steve_in_Idaho said:
    I always thought Sarah and friend staged that video.

    There's a follow-up video that addresses that question, at least partially. If I recall, alcohol was a factor - but apparently ""Max" is really like that.

  • Yes, Max is a self-admitted drama queen. Exaggerating his distress is part of his schtick. I do share the video often because it so nicely illustrates the bow-down posture that stern-bulkhead-only rec boats can adopt as well as how a swamped boat will sink and be difficult to re-enter (without prior practice), even in calm shallow water.

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