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Wetsuit...how thick?

As much as I'd like to have a drysuit, they are way beyond what I can afford. So I've decided a wetsuit will have to do for Fall paddling.

My question: What thickness should I get?

Thanks.

«1

Comments

  • Impossible to answer with this piddly amount of information.

  • @Sparky961 said:
    Impossible to answer with this piddly amount of information.

    SW Virginia. Air temps of no less than 50.

    Does that help?

  • edited October 2018

    Water temp, type of boat, length of trip, distance from shore, skill level, group/solo..... and there's probably more I'm forgetting.

    Give everyone a nice long narrative of what you want to do and the folks here can be much more helpful.

  • Water temps are the most important.

    But even knowing the temperature is not enough. Are you very fat or very skinny? It makes a tremendous difference. When I had a BMI above 30, I could jump into ice water in just a pair of bathing shorts and feel comfortable* for several minutes. Now my BMI is 23, and I feel the cold much more. Not really looking forward to this season's ice swimming.

    So the best advice is: Test your rescues in the water temperature and equipment you want to use. Then you will find out if it works or not. And remember to test those rescues safely, with a backup plan if they don't work.

    (*: Well, "comfortable" is perhaps an exaggeration. I could suppress my desire to jump out of the water, screaming.)

  • edited October 2018

    I agree that more details would help narrow down suggestions. But I'll "dump out the drawer" of my own experience with thermal paddling wear anyway and maybe some of it would be useful to you, at least in making your needs more specific for further discussion. Again, these are my personal usage schemes, developed over a few decades of dressing for conditions. Other people likely have different ones.

    Used drysuits can be quite affordable. I have seen several for sale on various paddling forums in the past few months for under $300. I got my own Kokatat Goretex drysuit (worth $1200 new) used for $400.

    I also have a couple of wetsuits, at least one of which I also bought used. The used one is a "3/4" (4 mm thickness in the body and thinner 3 mm in the sleeves and lower legs). It's designed for surfing and is a fairly typical weight for such suits -- quite comfortable but not ideal for paddling because it zips up the back so you are leaning against the zipper and also can't vent it in the front as you can with a front zip.

    Farmer John/Jane suits, the sleeveless ones with long legs that zip up the front, are more commonly used for kayaking and canoeing and are usually 3 mm. My personal opinion is that this is the best option for paddling and the most flexible. I have a 3 mm NRS Farmer Jane. I can wear a 1.5 mm NRS Hydroskin jacket over it in chilly conditions and then open and eventually remove the jacket as the day and/or water warms up. I also have the 1,5 mm Hydroskin pants that I can wear with the jacket in conditions where water is warmer than when I might use the Farmer Jane. I got every one of these pieces on sale at various times over the years.

    There are also 0.5 mm stretchy neoprene tops and bottoms (Hydroskins are one example) that provide a little warmth but are more for protection against sunburn and abrasion in my opinion. They can be used for layering, like under shorts or a drysuit but are more like longjohns than they are useful for thermal protection on their own.

    5 mm suits are warmer but substantially bulkier -- more often used for SCUBA in cooler waters. They are not all that comfortable and once you get down to water temperatures under 65 anyway wind is likely to be an added factor and a drysuit is a safer option.

    There are also 2/3 suits which are usually called "spring-suits". I have a "shortie" version (sleeves above the elbows and legs above the knees) that works well for snorkeling in the Caribbean and paddling in fair weather where it is too cool for shorts and tee shirts. Even the "warm" 80 degree water in tropical areas can eventually make you feel chilled when you are immersed for a long time.

    Though there are various articles and charts suggesting the best types of thermal protection based on water and air temperatures, they don't all exactly agree. To some extent the choice is personal and people have variance in their metabolisms and level of cold and heat tolerance. For somebody starting out to build a wardrobe of thermal wear for paddling, I think a 3 mm front zip Farmer John is the most versatile core garment to start with,. If you find you need more insulation, adding a 1.5 mm or 2 mm longsleeved top or a Goretex dry top over it will add range.

    The list below is sort of my approximate personal range by water temp and topside conditions. To put it in perspective -- I am female, average weight (BMI of 26), have a pretty conservative metabolism and am not much bothered by cold. Except on the warmest days, I wear 5 mm neoprene hard soled booties on my feet. Also, 99% of the time I am either in a sit inside kayak or a canoe. You need more cool water protection on your lower body if you paddle a sit on top with the wetter ride that creates :

    water over 80 degrees: polyester or Smartwool sportswear over a one piece bathing suit
    75 to 80 degrees: 2/3 mm shortie spring suit or 0.5 mm Hydroskins (long sleeve top and bottom). Dry top in the hatch, just in case.
    70 to 75 degrees: 3 mm Farmer Jane (dry top added on windy days)
    65 to 70 degrees: 3/4 mm full length wetsuit (dry top added on windy days)
    60 to 65 degrees: Farmer Jane plus 1.5 mm Hydroskin jacket (dry top added on windy days)
    60 to 55 degrees: dry suit with 0.5 hydroskins underneath
    under 55 degrees: drysuit with fleece "bunny suit" underneath
    under 45 degrees: stay home

  • Here's a guide from O'neill wetsuits.

    Personally, I think its recommendations are generally ok for the warmer end of each range specified, but near the colder end, IMO, their recommendation would leave you cold and I personally would go with the next thicker suit for warmth.
    the pacific around me is ~65° and I am comfortable in a 4/3 full wetsuit. I figure it could get a few degrees colder before I switch over to my drysuit.

    Like willow says, your body fay has a large effect on your personal perception of the coldness of water and resistance to cold. I am athletic with very little body fat and get cold rather quickly in cold water.

    As other people mention, if you're close to help, civilization, and rescue, a somewhat thinner suit is ok. If you need to survive for hours in cold water, a thicker suit should be chosen.

    ALso, as willow says, I got my Kokatat goretex suit for $250, so a used drysuit is affordable. Also Mythic Drysuits are available for as cheap as $250 new.

    This is an informative video, though the guy with no protection is a Champ and the woman who bails early with plenty of protection is a wuss. the guy lasts 15mins in freezing cold water. hes a badass (but also had a rescue crew literally standing around him)

  • I picked up a semi-drysuit on clearance for around $280. I usually wear a thin wetsuit on underneath it and/or wool layers. Works perfectly. Have literally gone swimming with it as well as routinely jump in during the coldest months. The caveat: wouldn't be the best for lot's of rolling, surf zones or going a good distance offshore in really cold water.

  • I know they're a lot of money, but quality drysuits last a really long time if you take care of them. They are more versatile for different weather conditions, and generally give better mobility. Having used both, I don't think there's any comparison.

    I still use a shorty wet suit sometimes in the spring when the air is warm and the water still chilly. But since solidifying some reliable rolling skills I wear my drysuit in much warmer conditions than I used to, and just roll frequently to moderate my temperature.

  • edited November 2018

    @Sparky961 said:
    I know they're a lot of money, but quality drysuits last a really long time if you take care of them. They are more versatile for different weather conditions, and generally give better mobility. Having used both, I don't think there's any comparison.

    I still use a shorty wet suit sometimes in the spring when the air is warm and the water still chilly. But since solidifying some reliable rolling skills I wear my drysuit in much warmer conditions than I used to, and just roll frequently to moderate my temperature.

    So, having skills and/or skilled partners really extend your range of options. Middle of this week, I went surfing (solo surfing as usual) in my long boat with a 2 mm full wetsuit, under a drytop and a pfd. it was 40 degrees air and 53 degrees water (which according to the generic charts, I would be "pushing the safety limits"). But, as I expected, I was sweating like crazy sprinting in and out of the surf zone. And, of course, bracing and lots of inadvertent rolling happened. Enough so to cool me off. I never came close to coming out of my boat (the rolls felt more effortless in the long boat than with my waveski). If i did, it would not have been a long swim back to shore. If I were further out, I am pretty sure I would have been able to do a re-entry and roll and/or a paddlefloat re-entry in under 15 minutes. Certainly within the timeframe before I would have been physically incapacitated by hypothermia.

    In the past, I would have been in fleece, drysuit, and PFD. I would have also been totally drenched from sweat (so much for making a lie of the "dry"suit concept). If I didn't wear sufficient layers under drysuit, then I would not be as sweaty and drenched. But, the trade-off would be that I cut my window of time to safely to do re-entry (but likely well within my skills portal).

    Again, what I am getting at is the the window of safety is hugely contingent not only on a person's physical characteristics, but on the paddling venue, the partners and their skilled levels. So the "right" choice in immersion protection is really hard question to answer for someone other than oneself (provided one is self awared).

    sing

  • Yup, completely agree with your above comments, @sing. Hence my initial (and perhaps a bit curt) response to the question

    There are just so many variables in the equation. If I couldn't roll proficiently, I'd often be sweating to death in my drysuit, despite the ice and snow around me when I paddle in the winter.

  • Half priced brand new drysuit, about the same cost as a nicer wetsuit:
    http://www.rivermiles.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1538343678

  • edited November 2018

    How does the NRS Hydroskin stuff, compare with a real wet suits? Been looking at both, as a bridge between shorts and my drysuit.

  • Hydroskin, for me, is summer or pool wear. I use it to keep me more from getting sunburn than for immersion protection.

    sing

  • 0.5 mm Hydroskin is for sun protection, but the 1.5 mm is decently. warm and easier to layer than thicker neoprenes.

  • I paddle in the waters of Mine in the summer. A thinner category of hydroskin (last I looked there were two weights) is often my top when paddling near shore to watch osprey diving for their dinner and the drysuit would be overkill. But I am talking very non-challenging paddles because even in July the water is usually in the high 50's.

  • ...hydroskin for summer...

    hmm, well down here in northern FL, hydroskin is great for winter.
    my 'daily stretch' paddles are pre-dawn, so a bit cooler temps (and no sun).
    Winter (predawn) is typically higher 40's, some warm spells, some cold spells.
    All things being equal (wind, waves, tidestream direction), for me, my formula is:
    anorak +
    60s = 2 light polypros
    50s = 3 (usually 1 light + 1 mid)
    40s = 4 (1mid + .5hydroskin or 2 light)
    For me, a .5hydroskin is equivilant to a mid or 2 light polypro shirts
    If I'm going to be getting wet, I'll use the hydroskin.
    note: I'm of slight build, some may prefer less, and I don't 'push it', so don't build up a sweat

  • Medawgone: the 1,5 Hydroskin has a "fuzzy" interior that I find more comfortable than a wet suit, You do get damp inside of it, either from water flushing in or sweat, but I don't find it as uncomfortable on my skin as the conventional neo wetsuits I have due to the texture and stretchiness. The only drawback I have found to it is that it takes a long time to dry out after you have worn and rinsed it. I went to a 4 day kayak camp and was glad that I brought both the long pants and jacket and the Farmer Jane (all 1.5 Hydroskin) because it took 2 days hung in the cabin to get the garments dry , even turned inside out and I could rotate them. Yeah, I know I could have just put them on wet, but since we did a lot of early morning standing around on shore for lectures and instruction I preferred starting with a reasonably dry layer.

    There are wetsuit makers who use a more comfortable brushed surface stretchier material -- Henderson is one that comes to mind. What I like about the NRS products is that the designs are paddler-centered and it does make a difference. Though I find my standard back-zip, padded knees surfer wet suit is great for canoeing, it is not that ergonomic for kayaking,

  • VC....I have a Kokatat Drysuit for sale for only $350...it is the GMER model. Gortex. It is in very good condition. Hate to admit it but I can’t fit into it anymore and need to size up. The Drysuit is a size Large. Text me: 518-796-6289 or pitmartin@roadrunner.com ......if interested...

  • @pitmartin said:
    VC....I have a Kokatat Drysuit for sale for only $350...it is the GMER model. Gortex. It is in very good condition. Hate to admit it but I can’t fit into it anymore and need to size up. The Drysuit is a size Large. Text me: 518-796-6289 or pitmartin@roadrunner.com ......if interested...

    It kills me to pass that up, but a large would be too big for me :( Thanks for the offer though!

  • Perhaps it is, but make sure you also consider the thickness of the insulation layers you'll be adding. A drysuit on it's own offers almost no thermal protection in the water.

    I own a Kokatat Expedition XL, more for the height than the width. But I've found when paddling in the winter that the extra bulk is handy. I'd love to have different sizes for different conditions, but I'd also love to win the lottery.... which you need to play in order to win, and I don't.

  • my personal opinion, you would be much better off with a "cheap" drysuit and buying some fleece pajamas at walmart as a under layer
    https://www.mythicdrysuits.com/collections/drysuits,

    I'll gladly spend more on clothing than a boat or paddle so i can boat in the winter( in wv)- your life could depend upon it, so going cheap ain't a good idea for true winter paddling- just my two cents

  • @tdaniel said:
    my personal opinion, you would be much better off with a "cheap" drysuit and buying some fleece pajamas at walmart as a under layer
    https://www.mythicdrysuits.com/collections/drysuits,

    I wonder if Mythic is still in business. Many suits are out of stock.

  • @melenas said:

    @tdaniel said:
    my personal opinion, you would be much better off with a "cheap" drysuit and buying some fleece pajamas at walmart as a under layer
    https://www.mythicdrysuits.com/collections/drysuits,

    I wonder if Mythic is still in business. Many suits are out of stock.

    Hmmm... Maybe going of business. The female model grabbed a left over drysuit for a guy...?

    https://www.mythicdrysuits.com/collections/drysuits/products/taruba-unisex

    It says "uni-sex" but the design clearly favors the male function. Just saying...

    sing

  • Dying sucks I have heard. So if you don't have proper gear stay home.

  • edited November 2018

    @PaddleDog52 said:
    Dying sucks I have heard. So if you don't have proper gear stay home.

    You obviously didn't hear from someone who died. ;)

    You can die physically once. If you live your life in fear of dying, you'll die a thousand deaths. (A warrior's saying.)

    In terms of "staying home," I don't. With paddling, I just learn to stay away from being engaged with certain types (as they are would mutually want to stay away from me.... so it all works! :smiley:

    sing

  • You don't want to die dumb because you cheaper out.

  • edited November 2018

    @PaddleDog52 said:
    You don't want to die dumb because you cheaper out.

    Ok. I hear you. But, even with the "best" gear, nothing is 100%.

    I don't know the statics of it, but I think I am actually more likely to die pedaling to work than going out paddling. I wear my helmet and reflective clothing. Still several years back, a woman broadsided me in front of an entrance to a mall and sent me flying 20' or more across the road. I tucked in the air and rolled and came up luckily with a few minor bruises (my bike fared much worse). Another time, my attention lapsed and I went into a pothole and did a head over heels with my feet clipped into the pedals. I got knocked out and blew out my knee (torn ACL and ripped meniscus). Having experienced these, I could give up biking (as many has suggested and some said outright) and get into a car crawl through traffic on the daily commutes... No thanks. I acknowledge that I may die yet while commuting by bike. But, when the times comes, so be it. No one lives forever (and I don't want to). :)

    sing

  • Nothing's 100% but my father said "good care takes the head off bad luck"

  • How much money did the owner of North Face have? Millions but bad choices killed him.

  • Stay safe, sing.

  • @VACaver

    This link may help answer your questions. http://www.coldwatersafety.org/Rule5.html#rule5Case1

    Paddler was wearing a 3mm neoprene wetsuit.

  • Don't do it! I haven't read through all the posts so, my apology if this has been stated. My point is that wet suits are not designed to be used in air. Under water, there is no evaporative cooling, therefore you stay warm. In air, you are always cooling down (assuming the suit is wet). I find a wet suit good on a super hot summer day because of this. My opinion would be to go with a windbreaker if you can't afford a dry suit. Of course, when it comes to clothing and staying warm, time is always an issue. An hour in a wet suit may not kill you but, a full day on the water in windy conditions may give you hypothermia. I went the wetsuit route early in my kayaking life. I soon ditched it for the above reasons.

  • Windbreaker is a bad idea for cold water paddling. I suggest reading through the entire thread and others related.

  • So Sparky, are you a clothing retailer. I'm just trying to prevent an inexperienced user from making a big mistake. Even after the initial poster stated he'd be out in 50 degree air, people are still suggesting a wetsuit. And as to your post about sweating in a dry suit, I wear a Kokatat dry bib and anorak and, I stay dry as a powdered babies bottom. You get what you pay for. And, the web is the land of misinformation.

  • @Old_Yakker said:
    the web is the land of misinformation.

    Indeed it is.

  • edited November 2018

    Yes I believe you need a windbreaker with a wetsuit in 50° air. Don't really bother with my wetsuit much anyway. Water below 60° definitely a drysuit for me. I am usually alone paddling and feel better in it. Even 65° water I'll use drysuit some times.

  • " I haven't read through all the posts ....but " .... "you need a windbreaker with a wetsuit in 50% air"

    This site has become hopeless with misinformation.

  • edited November 2018

    The O’Neill chart is fairly close to what works for me, until the blue zones. In those, the upper end matches my “comfortable” zone but the lower end would be Get Out Quickly territory. And in the purple zone, it is strictly drysuit time for me.

    The chart, and others like it, is only a starting point to determine what YOU need.

    Fit matters, too. A lot. Make sure the wetsuit is snug enough to minimize flush-through of water.

  • @SeaDart said:
    " I haven't read through all the posts ....but " .... "you need a windbreaker with a wetsuit in 50% air"

    This site has become hopeless with misinformation.

    Just have to shrug and move on. This "debate" plays out over and over on this site. People know what they know but also think they know what they don't know.

    sing

  • @sing said:
    Ok. I hear you. But, even with the "best" gear, nothing is 100%.

    I don't know the statics of it, but I think I am actually more likely to die pedaling to work than going out paddling.

    50% of the people in the US die from heart disease, cancer, or lung disease. For people over 40, accidents come in 4th. So eat right, exercise, don’t smoke, and pray for good genes.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/282929.php

    In 2017, the Coast Guard reported 138 deaths involving canoes and kayaks.

    http://www.uscgboating.org/library/accident-statistics/Recreational-Boating-Statistics-2017.pdf

    In 2016, there were 204 cycling deaths - I would have thought that number would be higher. So Sing, you are not more likely to die in a bike accident, but you are more likely to get in an accident involving a serious injury.

    https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/cyclists/cycling-accidents-factsheet.pdf

    By comparison, 33K people died in car crashes and 14K people died from opioid overdoses.

    https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/overview/key_data.html

    So the most dangerous thing we do every day is get in the car and drive.

  • @eckilson said:

    @sing said:

    http://www.uscgboating.org/library/accident-statistics/Recreational-Boating-Statistics-2017.pdf

    In 2016, there were 204 cycling deaths - I would have thought that number would be higher. So Sing, you are not more likely to die in a bike accident, but you are more likely to get in an accident involving a serious injury.

    https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/cyclists/cycling-accidents-factsheet.pdf

    By comparison, 33K people died in car crashes and 14K people died from opioid overdoses.

    https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/overview/key_data.html

    So the most dangerous thing we do every day is get in the car and drive.

    Thanks for the numbers. Mark another one in there.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/11/15/james-was-shining-star-new-hampshire-cyclist-riding-cross-country-for-cancer-research-killed-mississippi/e13auPC3mCVyBdH8RlM0HK/story.html

    Godspeed, James.

    sing

  • Car stats to me are skewed because so many people drive like complete idiots. They take innocent people with them but I'd say A-holes die more frequently.

  • edited November 2018

    @MCImes said:
    Here's a guide from O'neill wetsuits.

    Personally, I think its recommendations are generally ok for the warmer end of each range specified, but near the colder end, IMO, their recommendation would leave you cold and I personally would go with the next thicker suit for warmth.
    the pacific around me is ~65° and I am comfortable in a 4/3 full wetsuit. I figure it could get a few degrees colder before I switch over to my drysuit.

    I think all the blue columns are off. For me anyway, I'd be cold if I swam dressed like that. Pretty questionable that they recommend it this way. Purple column is quite ridiculous as far as I am concerned.

    But the best way is to test for yourself in a controlled environment such as a bathtub (add ice if your tap water is not cold enough). I wouldn't just trust the manufacturer, especially in colder water.

  • edited November 2018

    YMMV. Wearing a hooded 5/4 for three hours of winter paddle surfing with air temps in the upper teens and water temp around 40. Never felt cold until it was time to change out. That is another story.... (Hint - have the car warmed up and blasting the heat, use a changing pancho, stand on a 2x2' piece of carpet square. Also, keep hot water in 2 gallon bottles stored in a flexible insulated cooler, covered with your towels while you surf.)

    Season's first winter-like surf session comes tomorrow and Friday. :smiley:

    PS. Use silicone grease on all exposed skin areas to prevent frostbite!

    sing

  • At my barnicle covered rocky and boulder strewn homebreak, a drysuit can be a hazard. On bigger days, a good breaking wave can drive you under and tumble you along the bottom. A ripped drysuit would be extremely dangerous, if one paddle surfs alone or with a few, like I often do in the winter.

    sing

  • The statistic quoted for bicycling deaths seems low. I know several locations within 10 miles of me where people have been killed in bicycling accidents. I know of only a handful of fatal kayaking accidents in California in recent history.

  • edited November 2018

    @sing
    "Hmmm... Maybe going of business. The female model grabbed a left over drysuit for a guy...? .
    ...It says "uni-sex" but the design clearly favors the male function. Just saying..."

    FUD.
    Except for my most recent Idol suit design I have always gotten a Kokatat Unisex with a dropped pzip. More recently gravity started winning the argument here and there. But the curves in the women's suits have tended to be more so than my own, and the leg and arm length in the unisex small is spot on.

  • Like Willowleaf, I've made a lot of use of the Farmer John, separate top option. One of the biggest strengths of the Farmer Jane/John is that there's no wetsuit wrapped around your arms, and when your goal is paddling, that freedom of movement is really nice. One of the biggest weaknesses of the Farmer Jane/John, is that each opening in a wetsuit is an area where water can flush through. And an NRS Farmer John/Jane is like a tanktop. Instead of the ends of your sleeves at your wrists, and a snug fitting neck opening, being the only areas where water can flush in, you have a huge area for water to flush. If you add a top over your Farmer Jane/John, you're back down to just your wrists and neck. When kayaking, you want the flushing protection from the top down. You don't want to feel a fresh trickle of water through your suit with every wave you paddle through. That's why the long-sleeved top over the Farmer Jane/John, and not the Farmer Jane/John over the top. You haven't sealed off the openings for flushing into the Jane/John unless the top is over the top of the Jane/John. Obvious when you think about it, but I learned this through experience.
    A couple of surf magazines rated O'Neill's Technobutter 3 as the most flexible wetsuit material for 2018. Now I understand from reading a little about it that there has been some give and take between flexibility and warmth over the years regarding wetsuit material - more flexible, less warmth given the thickness, but some of this stuff like Technobutter 3 does a really good job of both warmth and flexibility - always working to bridge that gap. .
    Have you tried this stuff? I have. Pretty amazing compared to the first wetsuits I bought. A proper fitting, skin tight 3mm Hyperfreak full suit, and my arms and shoulders don't feel inhibited. It's really good stuff.
    I also have a Hyperfreak 1.5 mm longsleeve top that I pull on over a 3mm NRS Ultra John. And I'll wear a paddle jacket over it on a windy or cooler air day. That ends up with fairly thick neoprene around your torso, but just the 1.5 mm very flexible top to keep your shoulders and arms from feeling inhibited.
    A Rip Curl Ebomb Pro top is also made with some of the most flexible material out there - they call their's E5.

    Regarding Old Yakker's comments, I'd really hate to see someone forgo a wetsuit, being all they can afford at the moment, because they don't think it will add protection in cold water. "I wear a Kokatat dry bib and anorak and, I stay dry as a powdered babies bottom. You get what you pay for.". This is very personal and situational. It is rare that I'm not wet from sweat getting out of my drysuit, but possible on a relaxed paddling day. Old Yakker's staying dry has little to nothing to do with getting what you pay for, and more to do with a person's activity. Kokatat's dry suits don't keep you dry if you're dressed warm enough, and working hard enough, to work up a good athletic sweat. You'll just be wet underneath. The bigger question I would have, is given the use of a bib and not a full dry suit, how much swimming out of the kayak is done while remaining powder dry? I would think I would want to be wearing neoprene underneath if doing a life/death swim in a bib suit/anorak combo. It looks like it probably mates the same as my dry pants/dry top combo, which can be pretty good. But a drysuit with fluff on underneath, and even a small leak during an extended swim can be catastrophic.

  • Haven't read these replies, but if it hasn't been said already, a wetsuit will keep you much warmer if it is actually wet all the way. You can become quite chilly in a dry wetsuit on a cold day. I think I'd also add a windbreaker top of some sort.

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