Hello, Paddler!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Looking to upgrade my paddle

I currently have an Aqua-Bound Manta Ray hybird, but am thinking of an upgrade. Looking for something a bit lighter. I like the 2-piece design, and want something with adjustable angle (I paddle with a 30 degree feather). Any suggestions? All my paddle buddies have Werner, so I was thinking of that, just not sure which model.

«1

Comments

  • What kind of paddling/boat do you do.

  • Lendal Or Werner.

    https://www.the-river-connection.us/collections/paddles

    As to model, Gill is in on Grayhawk’s question.

    See you on the water,
    Marshall
    The River Connection, Inc.
    9 W. Market St.
    Hyde Park, NY
    845-229-0595 main
    845-242-4731 mobile
    Main: www.the-river-connection.com
    Store: www.the-river-connection.us
    Facebook: fb.me/theriverconnection

  • I currently have a Tsunami 140, and mainly paddle on Lake Erie. How's the Werner Ikelos? Pricey, but sounds like it'd be close to what I'm looking for.

  • Ikelos = large surface area creates a lot of leverage for you which is a pro/con. Great if you want a lot of leverage to horse the kayak around for maneuvering (Tsunami being a more straight tracking kayak) or if you have the muscle power to endure the additional resistance for the miles on long hauls.

    YMMV

    See you on the water,
    Marshall
    The River Connection, Inc.
    9 W. Market St.
    Hyde Park, NY
    845-229-0595 main
    845-242-4731 mobile
    Main: www.the-river-connection.com
    Store: www.the-river-connection.us
    Facebook: fb.me/theriverconnection

  • Larger paddle face is more stress on your upper body. If you’re a smaller person, or female without major upper body muscles, a smaller paddle will allow a longer trip with less strain. So it depends on your body. If you’re planning to spend $400+ for a paddle, it makes sense to try it out first, if you are near a paddlesports shop.

    Or, you can purchase used and then flip it if you decide it’s not right for you.

  • To add to what Marshall says, the Ikelos is considered a "high angle" paddle and if you are a big guy, it's a great choice. I'm 6' and 205lbs and prefer the slightly smaller bent shaft Cyprus but I'm also in my late 60's. I wouldn't recommend the Ikelos if you're much smaller than I am as you could end up with shoulder and arm strains - bigger isn't always better! Is there a dedicated paddle shop close by where you could try them both?

    All the Werner paddles are beautifully made with a great ferrule design. You'll see and feel the difference from your Aqua-Bound immediately. Not that I'm knocking Aqua-Bound as I still use my old carbon Sting Ray as a backup.

    Lendal and Carlisle also make great paddles.

  • I'm a low angle paddler, paddle a NDK Greenlander Pro and Valley Nordkapp, and am very happy with my two piece Werner Kalliste.
    With a mid-sized blade and weighing just 22.5 ounces, I don't feel worn out at the end of a paddle. Not cheap, but a high quality paddle I feel is well worth the price.
    http://wernerpaddles.com/paddles/touring/low-angle/kalliste

  • I've been using my Werner Camano for many years on my NC Expedition and wouldn't trade it for anything. I think the fiberglass paddle is light enough and the price difference from carbon is substantial.

    If you're looking for a bargain in a glass paddle, I still think the Carlisle Expedition is hard to beat and apparently hard to find. Amazon does show that they have one left in stock, but it is a 240 ($99). They also show a 220, but it is the Angler Expedition ($109.99) It also says they are available in a 230. Free shipping. These are pure fiberglass paddles and you just aren't going find a better paddle at that price.

  • edited July 29

    Also consider paddle length. My Aqua-Bound Stingray is 230cm, which for low angle paddling is fine for me. But when I moved over to a higher angle style it's a little long. In my 24" beam kayak, and after a discussion with a Werner factory rep at a trade show, a 210cm Cyprus suits me very well at 6' 0" tall.

  • @kfbrady said:
    To add to what Marshall says, the Ikelos is considered a "high angle" paddle and if you are a big guy, it's a great choice. I'm 6' and 205lbs and prefer the slightly smaller bent shaft Cyprus but I'm also in my late 60's. I wouldn't recommend the Ikelos if you're much smaller than I am as you could end up with shoulder and arm strains - bigger isn't always better! Is there a dedicated paddle shop close by where you could try them both?

    All the Werner paddles are beautifully made with a great ferrule design. You'll see and feel the difference from your Aqua-Bound immediately. Not that I'm knocking Aqua-Bound as I still use my old carbon Sting Ray as a backup.

    Lendal and Carlisle also make great paddles.

    I am about 6', but only 155 lbs. I think my Manta Ray hybrid only has lightly less paddle are than the Ikelos, so hopefully there's not too much difference in force required. I tend to paddle high angle.

  • The Manta Ray is considered a high angle blade. Other people here have been suggesting blade shape changes and such, but you didn't mention looking to do that, so I am going to do a straight changeover to the closest Werner product to what you currently use.

    Both the Werner "premium" and "ultimate" category paddles would be improvements in weight over the Manta Ray. The premium ones will be 100-200 grams lighter. The ultimate paddles will be 200-300 grams lighter.

    Based on blade size, the Ikelos looks to be closest to what you are currently using. Only available in ultimate level, as far as I can tell (someone correct me if I am wrong). The Shuna would be a premium level option with slightly smaller blade (still considered high angle), and Corrvreken with slightly larger blade.

    Shuna 615 sq cm blade
    Manta Ray 677 sq cm blade
    Ikelos 691 sq cm blade
    Corryvrecken 721 sq cm blade

    I have tried a variety of paddles over the years, but have settled on Werner as the ones I buy and use. I have both Shuna and Corryvrecken, but mostly use the Shuna.

  • @Peter-CA said:
    The Manta Ray is considered a high angle blade. Other people here have been suggesting blade shape changes and such, but you didn't mention looking to do that, so I am going to do a straight changeover to the closest Werner product to what you currently use.

    Both the Werner "premium" and "ultimate" category paddles would be improvements in weight over the Manta Ray. The premium ones will be 100-200 grams lighter. The ultimate paddles will be 200-300 grams lighter.

    Based on blade size, the Ikelos looks to be closest to what you are currently using. Only available in ultimate level, as far as I can tell (someone correct me if I am wrong). The Shuna would be a premium level option with slightly smaller blade (still considered high angle), and Corrvreken with slightly larger blade.

    Shuna 615 sq cm blade
    Manta Ray 677 sq cm blade
    Ikelos 691 sq cm blade
    Corryvrecken 721 sq cm blade

    I have tried a variety of paddles over the years, but have settled on Werner as the ones I buy and use. I have both Shuna and Corryvrecken, but mostly use the Shuna.

    Nice. Thanks for this info. Yeah, I am used to high angle, so figure I might as well stay with that. There are 4 or 5 of us who paddle together casually, and I think most everyone else is using a Werner. I see them at the rental place, too, so figured it's a solid brand.

  • Nice. Thanks for this info. Yeah, I am used to high angle, so figure I might as well stay with that. There are 4 or 5 of us who paddle together casually, and I think most everyone else is using a Werner. I see them at the rental place, too, so figured it's a solid brand.

    If you see them at the rental place perhaps you can rent a few different blades.
    I would rent a few paddles for the weekend when I was looking for a new paddle. The shop would credit my rental fees toward the purchase price of the paddle I decided on. I have had the Camano and the Kalliste. I use the Kalliste but it is foam core and I feel the Camano is more rugged.
    Whatever you choose Werner has great service.

  • My suggestion is to not get hung up on high angle paddling. I've tried it all over the years and finally I decided I would find what works best for me. It turns out that low angle is what I settled on and there are definite benefits. I believe it is much less tiring and less strain on your arms and shoulders. It also allows you to slightly extend your stroke if you like--without lifting water. I concentrate on pushing the blade that is out of the water and the low angle puts your arm and shoulder at much better position to reduced strain. I also think that the lower angle takes better advantage of torso rotation and you are less likely to bend your elbows as much. Don't let paddling correctness keep you from experimenting.

  • Thanks for the help, everyone! I ended up getting the Ikelos. Got to try it out today, and wow, what a difference compared to my AquaBound! It's very light and really gets the boat moving. Only thing I noticed is it felt like the blade was shaking/fluttering a bit as I pulled it through the water. It's the same length as my old paddle, and I'm still using a 30 deg feather, so I'm assuming I just need to adjust to the Werner. The blade is shaped differently than my old paddle, so I bet I just need to spend more time with it. Anyway, it was $$$, but I'd say it's well worth it =)

    One other thing: is it a bad idea to store my paddle like this (see photo below)? I'm thinking I should probably lay it flat on the floor somewhere, although I kept my AquaBound paddle like this (at least during paddling season), and haven't noticed any problems. I'm just a bit paranoid since this one was a lot more expensive.

  • Per Nigel Foster's The Art of Kayaking, flutter is caused by overpowering the blade. I did that today with my Cyprus while dealing with gusty headwinds. All gone as soon as I lightened up the next stroke.

    Per Werner's FAQ:

    1. After every use take your paddle apart and rinse both sides inside and out with fresh water.
    2. Store your paddle hanging apart with blades up.
    3. NEVER use a lubricant on your ferrule! Our ferrules don't like lubricants but they love lots of water!

    The rinsing after each use is important. While using a gentle stream of water, push the ferrule button in and out a few times. You want to avoid a stuck ferrule.

    If the button ever feels like it's sticking, use warm water mixed with a bit of dish soap and slosh it around a few times, then rinse.

    Great investment you made and it will serve you well.

  • Not to highjack the thread, but do you need to rinse after paddling in fresh water?

  • @Rookie said:
    Per Nigel Foster's The Art of Kayaking, flutter is caused by overpowering the blade. I did that today with my Cyprus while dealing with gusty headwinds. All gone as soon as I lightened up the next stroke.

    Per Werner's FAQ:

    1. After every use take your paddle apart and rinse both sides inside and out with fresh water.
    2. Store your paddle hanging apart with blades up.
    3. NEVER use a lubricant on your ferrule! Our ferrules don't like lubricants but they love lots of water!

    The rinsing after each use is important. While using a gentle stream of water, push the ferrule button in and out a few times. You want to avoid a stuck ferrule.

    If the button ever feels like it's sticking, use warm water mixed with a bit of dish soap and slosh it around a few times, then rinse.

    Great investment you made and it will serve you well.

    Thanks! I did notice the flutter seemed to happen when I was paddling harder. Lake Erie had some decent size waves going today. Not too windy, probably like 3-5 feet, but not breaking, so it was pretty fun bobbing up an down.

    I guess I might need a special paddle mount or something? Not sure how I would store it hanging?

  • @Doggy Paddler said:
    Not to highjack the thread, but do you need to rinse after paddling in fresh water?

    I've always just sprayed mine off with the hose when I got home, but never sprayed any on the inside. I'm thinking it'd be more important with saltwater.

  • Yes, you should rinse even if paddling in fresh water. Sand and other small particles can get into the ferrule. Werner doesn't differentiate between salt and fresh when it advises to take the paddle apart and rinse with fresh water after every use.

    They're expensive paddles. For me, it's worth it to take a couple of minutes to clean out the ferrule on my Cyprus. Cheaper than having to ship the paddle back to Werner for repair, which I had to do once because the spring in the ferrule was defective (they sent me a new paddle).

    Pretty sure you could find inexpensive clips that screw into a wall for the paddle.

  • The Ikelos is rather unforgiving. When I upgraded from the Shuna, it took me some time to get a clean bite with the Ikelos.

    To avoid the flutter and lack of bite, it is important to keep a good upper body rotation where you also slide the paddle sideways out from the boat during the stroke and keep a good push with your upper hand.

  • Allan’s point helps in addressing what’s going on. Biomechanically you’re likely pulling with the biceps too much (arm paddling)

    Think of the water piling up on the power face of the paddle. If it has no directed escape it will pour off one side till the pressure is released and build again till it needs to our off a side again. Flutter like a spoon type fishing Lure.

    Think of the blade as a wing with a leading edge (flowing molecules hits first) and trailing edge. With body rotation to power the paddle rather than pulling the paddle through the water the path of the paddle relative to the boat is at an angle away from the kayak rather than parallel. This makes the blade(wing) fly away from the hull making the top edge of the power face the leading edge throughout the power phase of the stroke giving the water a continuous escape route off the bottom trailing edge. Result should be no flutter, longer period of resistance in which to propel the kayak past and an easier exit point (which can add more speed but I’m already at limit for typing with my thumbs)

    Forward Stroke Refinement is a whole lot easier to teach in person than type.

    Have fun with your new paddle and your homework is Go Kayakkng!

    See you on the water,
    Marshall
    The River Connection, Inc.
    9 W. Market St.
    Hyde Park, NY
    845-229-0595 main
    845-242-4731 mobile
    Main: www.the-river-connection.com
    Store: www.the-river-connection.us
    Facebook: fb.me/theriverconnection

  • As a newb I find this advice easiest to understand and follow: to make sure to push with the opposite hand on the paddle shaft, instead of just pulling on the paddle with the water side hand. Dunno if this will help you but it has me.

  • You might want to try paddling without the feather (blades aligned in the same plane) just to see how that feels with the new model. I think it is more intuitive and easier to push on the the opposite hand when your wrists are not cocked at an angle, which they have to be to get the blade in the best position when the blades are offset.

    I have not used feathering since the first few weeks I owned a touring kayak 17 years ago and I know far more people who use them without feathering than do, though that is a completely legitimate personal choice if it feels right to you. Feathering has some benefits in windy conditions and paddlers racing for speed using a high angle often use it.

    In general, offset blades are more characteristic of paddles for whitewater because they can help you power through quick directional changes. A feathered paddle can be fatiguing on long trips because it does put more stress on your wrists..

  • One trick I was taught to ensure pushing not pulling is to open the pushing hand. If you try to pull with the top hand open you might find the paddling leaving your hand. It is a good way to ensure pushing.

  • @greyheron said:
    Would something like this work for hanging paddles?

    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blue-Hawk-2-28-in-Gray-Steel-Utility-Hook/50218525

    Absolutely.

  • When I got my first Werner, I also noticed the "flutter". I don't think it is exclusive to Werner paddles. It goes away when you let the paddle center itself; don't fight it. I think it is very helpful to concentrate on pushing the out-of-water blade. Pulling the in-water blade happens without thought.

    Werner's instructions on maintaining the paddle are right on, but I have to admit that I never do anything except keep the paddles clean and have never had a problem with any of them.

  • @magooch said:
    When I got my first Werner, I also noticed the "flutter". I don't think it is exclusive to Werner paddles.

    Correct. It is more or less supposed to happen if you are moving the blade perpendicularly to the water.

    Beginner paddles often have dihedral blades to prevent this. They give the water an "escape route" towards both edges of the paddle, so they will feel stable, even when paddled this way. But those are less efficient. So perhaps the OP's old paddle was dihedral.

  • I often notice a little flutter when I switch from my Werner Cyprus to my Greenland Paddle. Of course it goes away as soon as I realize I need to relax my stroke a little.

    I always rinse my carbon fiber paddles off with fresh water and apply some 303 protectant a couple or so times a year. After 5 years my Cyprus - and my wife's - still look brand new.

  • I keep my good paddles in a paddle safe in my temperature and humidity controlled wine cellar after I bath them and apply conditioner!

  • @Allan Olesen said:

    @magooch said:
    When I got my first Werner, I also noticed the "flutter". I don't think it is exclusive to Werner paddles.

    Correct. It is more or less supposed to happen if you are moving the blade perpendicularly to the water.

    Beginner paddles often have dihedral blades to prevent this. They give the water an "escape route" towards both edges of the paddle, so they will feel stable, even when paddled this way. But those are less efficient. So perhaps the OP's old paddle was dihedral.

    Could be. This was my last one:
    https://aquabound.com/products/manta-ray-hybrid-2pc-posi-lok-kayak-paddle

    I think the blades are indeed dihedral?

    I do push with my other hand, and tend to open it, too, but I will make a more conscious effort to do this. Also, I will try to do like everyone said, and not pull it straight back through the water. I'm sure it'll just take some getting used to. I've been using my AquaBound for over 4 years now, so probably have tens of thousands of strokes that have formed muscle memory. I only put about 5 miles on this new Werner so far, but looking forward to using it more. Awesome paddle!

  • Yes, that Manta thing surely looks dihedral.

    One thing, which helped me: I started paddling with a Greenland paddle. After a few weeks of high angle paddling with the GP, it felt much easier to get a good bite with the Ikelos.

    The Greenland paddles are even more unforgiving towards a wrong paddle stroke. But they also give more usable feedback. So when the Ikelos was just yelling to me "You are not treating me right!", the Greenland paddle told me "I want to be treated this way instead of what you are doing now."

    (No, I don't have the videos to prove that conversation. But I remember that the Ikelos had a female voice and the GP had a male voice...)

  • Funny, my new GP has a female voice whereas my Werner has a male voice, go figure!

  • Go to the menu and select the voice you like.......

  • "The Greenland paddles are even more unforgiving towards a wrong paddle stroke. But they also give more usable feedback. So when the Ikelos was just yelling to me "You are not treating me right!", the Greenland paddle told me "I want to be treated this way instead of what you are doing now.""

    When I borrowed my Daughter's Onno mid-tour for the 2nd half of a 50 miler it was more like being rapped on the knuckles by a tough teacher. "You will place me into the water this way only. You will stroke this way only. You will remove me from the water this way only" When you disobey you will be punished." Once I learned to obey we got along well.

  • I'm still enjoying the Ikelos, but still getting a bit of wobble/flutter while pulling it back through the water. It could very well be my technique, but my AquaBound did not do this. I know it could take weeks or months to adjust, but then I'm past the return window. I'm wondering if maybe I should exchange this for something else. Any other models or brands that would be less prone to this wobble?

    I'm also wondering if the foam fill and the added buoyancy is messing with me? My other paddle didn't have this.

  • edited August 4

    i think the problem is almost certainly your technique.

    Google up some forward paddling videos or better still take a lesson with an instructor.

  • Also, I'm wondering if the wind has something to do with it? It has been fairly windy these past few paddles. Maybe these big blades are grabbing more wind, and causing some of the flutter.

  • Flutter happens when the blade is in the water. From Werner's description of the Ikelos: Full sized blades are and [sic]
    ideal fit for larger, well-conditioned paddlers.

    Technique and conditioning can always be improved by every paddler.

  • If I'm remembering correctly, I think I had a bit of flutter with my Aquabound paddle when I first started. However, that has gone away. Today when I was out there, I noticed more fluttering when out on Lake Erie, and not so much on the smooth river. Wind was 10+ mph, and waves choppy at 1-2 ft, I'd guess.

    I think I'm going to try the Cyprus to see if the smaller blades are a better fit for me. It sounds like it might be better in theory, but OTOH, I prefer a slow, smooth cadence, so maybe I am better off with the Ikelos.

  • It took me a year to adjust to the Ikelos. I kept using it because it is a very nice paddle for practising technical skills, like sculling, rudders, sweep strokes, etc.

    If you are not much into that, but just want a good forward paddling paddle, you should try one of the medium blade Werners. The Ikelos has a huge blade, which is not the best option for most of us - it is more difficult to get a good bite in the water with a large blade.

    I have paddled with the Werner Shuna a lot, and it was much more forgiving than the Ikelos.

    The Werner Cyprus is between the two: Same blade size as Shuna, same blade shape as Ikelos. I have only paddled once with that and haven't formed an opinion.

  • edited August 5

    Unless your real name is Clark Kent, I would suggest the Werner Camano is a paddle you might want to try.

    Also--try to concentrate on pushing the out of water blade. You shouldn't have to think about pulling the blade in the water. Be sure that the force for all of this is coming from your torso and not your arms. Yeah, I know I'm repeating myself.

    There must be some slight variable in placement of the blade in the water that causes the wobble (flutter), because I had some of that a long time ago, but it went away. It must be something very subtle about how a paddler is managing the paddle and not so much the conditions. I paddle a lot in very rough conditions and no matter which paddle I'm using, there is no flutter.

  • edited August 5

    @greyheron said:
    Would something like this work for hanging paddles?

    https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blue-Hawk-2-28-in-Gray-Steel-Utility-Hook/50218525

    I use this for hanging all of my paddles, except my all carbon-fiber Werner Camano. That one gets special treatment. :)

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-Heavy-Duty-Flip-Up-Tool-Holder-Hooks-in-Black-01192/202305471?MERCH=REC--SearchPLPHorizontal1_rr--NA--202305471--N

  • I love my Werner Camano...but with all the talk about the GP experience, I think I want to try one! Can I find a two piece carbon fiber GP? :)

  • @lml999 said:
    I love my Werner Camano...but with all the talk about the GP experience, I think I want to try one! Can I find a two piece carbon fiber GP? :)

    I have a 3 piece carbon GP. I carry it as cabin luggage on flights.

    The link is to the Danish manufacturer, but it is sold by a few shops in the US too:
    https://gramkajak.com/products/partable-paddles-made-from-wood-og-carbon/gram-9000t-three-part-carbon-paddle/

  • @lml999 said:
    I love my Werner Camano...but with all the talk about the GP experience, I think I want to try one! Can I find a two piece carbon fiber GP? :)

    Gearlab makes 2-piece carbon GP paddles.

    https://www.gearlabpaddles.com

    The smooth feel of Western Red Cedar is something special though but I don't know of a 2-piece maker.

  • edited August 5

    You can make your own GP. You need a plane, a spoke shave and probably a jigsaw. And some sand paper. My first GP cost me $3 since I had the tools. Making one is really rewarding. Then buy a carbon one. But make your own!

    I use cheap straps and tie mine to the roof rack, for short trips we just stick it in the truck between us.

  • @kfbrady said:

    The smooth feel of Western Red Cedar is something special though but I don't know of a 2-piece maker.

    So agree with that. I tried a carbon GP. It felt lifeless compared to my Lumpy. It also was heavier.

Sign In or Register to comment.
Message Boards Close

Hello, Paddler!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!