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or, as some people call it, an unplanned roll. The only difference between a planned roll and unplanned roll is in your head---just remember to take your time, get in your set up position and perform the roll--this is easier said than done. Your first impulse in a capsize is to pop the skirt and get out of the boat.---best way to practice it is to do WW or surfing--in otherwords activities where you will likly flip--that's the way to develop it--and despite what people may say, nobody has a perfect roll all the time--although some seem damn close.
I’m a self taught roller and for me one of the characteristics of being self taught was that for some time I had a very marginal roll. My roll has improved over the years and as a result of practicing, using a Greenland stick and having an easy to roll boat. I now have a very reliable roll. One incident during my unreliable roll years taught me that there is a quality that distinguishes a swimming pool roll from a genuine oh shit! roll, and that quality is having the presence of mind to pause before you execute your roll and set yourself up to do it right the first time. If it doesn’t work the first time the second effort is likely to be worse than the first.
About 14 years ago I found myself in conditions that were at about the limit of my ability at that time, when a trawler crossed right in front of me; its wake coming from forward and the three foot chop coming from behind combined to support my kayak from both ends sort of like a roll of toilet paper in a toilet paper holder. The trough between the two waves was right under my cockpit at the very moment when a good brace would have been very desirable. It was at this time that I learned about the relative ineffectiveness of the air brace and as I settled into the fully inverted position I reflected on how very advantageous it would be to execute a successful roll within the next few seconds. It also occurred to me that I was very capable of executing a sloppy unsuccessful roll. My conclusion was that I should take two or three seconds to set up properly, think about the sequence of movements to do the roll correctly and to not panic. The result was that the roll worked. My point is that you can hold your breath a whole lot longer than it takes you to execute one successful roll and it is better to invest this time in making one successful attempt rather than using the time to make several unsuccessful attempts.
"The difference between flatwater and roughwater is mainly in the head. The technique is to know you can do it and to NOT do anything differently."
The difference between flat water and rough water are the waves. Several posters illustrated this point clearly. If you plan to pretend like the waves are just in your head the roll may not be effective.
You also can't open your eyes the same as fresh water.
I was just responding the original posters question.
I didn't say it was impossible, just more challenging.
Edit: sorry, PaddleMore, but your post confused me. You said you started out on flat water and gradually built up your skills, up to ocean conditions? Then you tell me that there is no difference between flat water and the ocean? It's all in my head?
You completely contradicted yourself there.
It takes a gradual process and some people may not ever fully appreciate the ocean.
As to doing an "offside" roll, remember when passing objects...whether it be rocks, or anything...on one's offside(as many people occasionally do...leaving their onsides free to the open waters), if you flip in those close quarters...there'll often be no room for an onside roll. Without pushing off from the object, thus giving yourself space...you easiest choice is an offside roll.
So if your offside roll is "off", practice relaxing, then pushing off the object..or even sculling the hull around a bit(if needed), then wind up to roll...etc.
I know from experience that there is a strong pull to practice the rolls I know, but the key to rolling in conditions is to practice (1) my weaker rolls and 2) moving from out of setup to rolling up on either side, e.g. to end disorientation. Rolling is easy: getting oriented takes time, and the less time taken the easier it is not to have to rush a roll.
... don't roll either, even though most who do consider it a beginner/basic skill that opens the door to other things.
rolling is a beginner skill that even experts should practice(to ensure consistancy). But its amazing how many people, including many who post here often, can't roll and don't really want to learn. For most kinds of sea kayaking, unlike white water, the need to roll is not crucial(it is however nice to know) if you always paddle with a partner who can do an assisted rescue, or in really calm water where you can do your cowboy or float recovery
I clicked on the link that explains their rating system.
Sorry you couldn't find it. It was right there at the tip of the page.
Several people here suggested that there is no diferance between kayaking on a lake and the coast.
I posted two links that illustrates that there is a rating system for coastal paddling.
I also provided a lot of other information such as building up your skill level.
Putting in at the back of Folly is a gentle area.
I was the only person to suggest building up your skill level and not just thinking the ocean is one big lake.
Two college students drown a few years ago.
I know people who head right out to the deep ocean on their first day without any knowledge of the area or weather patterns.
I don't know anyone's skill level. They may be a complete beginner. I'm only suggesting being prepared to handle those conditions.
Edit: I'm not sure that paddling on the one * is an absolute requirement before the **.
They used to not any kind of rating system, just "beginner", "intermediate" "advanced"
It's pretty laid back. They may have to have some kind of rating for their insurance policy. That's why they state that each individual is responsible for them selves. I also agree with that as well. Otherwise some people will show up without any basic skills, and expect everyone else to compensate for that. Or if they are injured from their own lack of training, they can't sue the paddling club.
That's why I posed both links.
There is no way I can assess anyone's skill level.
You can call them for their rules.
is a gentle area. paddling out to the lighthouse and other areas are not.
I got the three star BCU and joined the ACA specifically because I knew there were trips that would require some sort of proof of competency. Unfortunately, I have paddled with 4 star and "intermediate and advanced" people in mild "conditions=chop and confused washing machine seas, that I was very happy I had my tow rope with and because of that i am very leery of going out into conditions with people unless I have paddled with them before. In a club environment maybe that is not as easy just due to the nature of the beast.
I have no disagreement with you about a slow moving river being different from a small pond being diferent from a large lake being different from coastal waters being different from open seas. the farthest I have been out is 5 miles and I can assure you it is very very different.
And THAT is precisely why I love Kayaking!
(with a capital K)
just pokin a bit. all in fun
I kinda like flatwater trips sometimes too. Today did 8 miles using Greyaks woodwing with a top speed for over 1000 yards of 6.5 or so. I forgot to turn the thing off (GPS)when I stopped at an island for a quick swim and a clif bar and headed back.
(sitting on the back part of your pfd with the two side panels on either side of your hips keeps your head above water and you are in a barcolounger!