What is it? Kayak or canoe.

OC1
Some make the distinction by how it’s outfitted and paddled. When you see someone on their knees witha single blade, you should generally think canoe or maybe “OC1”.



I’ve seen whitewater boats converted into OC1s by ripping out the seat and adding a saddle and thigh straps. They make it easy in Englang by not distinguishing them at all.



If you start getting technical, most everything we call a kayak is a canoe by the dictionary definition.



If you classify it by how it’s outfitted and paddled, it does make things a lot easier and clear cut.



jim


Since you sit in it. It is a Kayak.
A kayak is type of canoe that is not set up to allow you to kneel. If you paddle and cannot kneel it is a kayak. If you paddle and can switch to kneeling or only can kneel then it is a canoe.



So all kayaks are canoes, but not all canoes are kayaks.

1 Like

Seat is Adjustable, You CAN Kneel

– Last Updated: Aug-24-10 12:36 PM EST –

Seat adjusts up, so kneeling possible. SO, it's a CANOE! You say ToMAto, I say TomaHto (LOO)! WW

Verlen called it a canoe.

Move it and see.
If all day you ponder identity,

therein lies the crisis,

for water abates bateau debates

and through both pleasure craft slices.

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Translation…
…in other words - Who cares what you call it, so long as it does what you like?

I call mine canoe, but
when non paddlers call it a kayak that’s fine too. When other paddlers call it kayak it opens a discussion of why I think it’s a canoe, most reasons already mentioned here. Another one to me would be in a kayak you sit on the bottom of the boat and a canoe you don’t. (canoe or kayak I have to sit, knees won’t handle kneeling).



But it’s not important what you call it, just enjoy. By the way, in the Superior’s gallery mine’s the purple one.



Carl

So, my Advantage is a kayak?

I sit in the bottom of the Rapidfire.
A canoe with a kayak hull.

Looks like a
CANYAK to me. :slight_smile:

As long as it takes you where you
want to go, what does it matter?



Congratulations on your choice of such a capable-looking… um… watercraft!

Decked Canoe…
Yes, it certainly blurs the lines, but as an avid kayaker and an owner of basically the same canoe (Sawyer Loon upon which your boat is based) it is a canoe. No question about it.



A kayak is worn, you sit below the waterline, and it has thigh braces and can be rolled.



This is a canoe with a deck. When you sit in it and paddle it you realize that it handles like a canoe too (although in a unique fasion).



Great boat…but it is a canoe. Just because you put a deck on top doesn’t make it a kayak.



Kind of like Pungos and the like aren’t really kayaks either…ooohhhh I may get blasted for that one. But it’s true. They really are decked canoes as well in many regards.





Matt

Tommy’s Rule

– Last Updated: Aug-30-10 8:07 AM EST –

You can use it or toss it as you please.
Tommy's rule states that if you sit less than four inches off the bottom and paddle with a double blade it's a kayak.
If you sit four inches or higher or kneel and paddle with a single blade then it's a canoe.
The deck has no say in the matter.
Further if you paddle a canoe with a double blade or a kayak with a single then you are a kook.

fun looking boat but the rudder and
foot pedal-thing should go…into dumpster!..lol

It looks like a fun boat, a decked touring boat, is fun enough. There are no shots of the underside on their website, which is kinda strange.

$.01

Tommy’s rule
Tommy,



I guess even though you live in NE you never met the late Bart Hauthaway, formally of Weston, MA. Bart was an olympic competitor, olympic coach and builder of open canoes, kayaks and decked canoes for many decades.



Bart’s rule was very simple: If you have to be able to roll it to safely proceed, it’s a kayak. Everything else is a canoe.



Decked canoes (called decked canoes) have a 140+ year documented history. I own a Copy of “A Thousand Miles In The Rob Roy Canoe,” printed in 1871. It tells of some of John Mcgreggor’s epic voyages. Those historic decked canoes were paddled with double bladed paddles. The book cover illustration (1871) shows a decked canoe being paddled with a double blade paddle, by a dapper man sitting on the bottom.



The earliest American recreational paddlers paddled decked canoes, while sitting on the bottom, using double blade paddles for propulsion: they were inspired by Mcgreggor’s books. Look up the beginning of the ACA at the Sugar Island annual gatherings in the 1880 and 1890s-mostly decked canoes, propelled with double blades, while sitting on the bottom. Because these were very wealthy and competitive men, sailing races soon became prominent and Rob Roy style decked canoes quickly gave way to primarily sailing canoes. The duration of the Rob Roy prominence then was about as long as we have had decked canoes foisted on us as “rec” Kayaks in the present time. “Rec” kayak is just a marketing name for decked canoes, developed for the beginner who was convinced he wanted a kayak and then found true kayaks too tippy. So a new category of “kayaks” was developed, filled by decked canoes and called rec kayaks. Now the sale of a “kayak” could be made. Ka-ching, Ka-ching-give the customer what he wants, and invent a new name for it.



Pack canoes (called that) have a 130 year history. They are also paddled by a double blade paddle while sitting on the bottom-always were and still are.



There are historical records of places in the world where people paddled true kayaks (by Bart’s definition) with single blade paddles.



While paddlers lacking knowledge of canoe and kayak history can and do state whatever they presently see, experience or want to believe as the whole truth, there is a long historical record they are ignoring.



Dave


Mcgreggor


Should we give Mcgreggor undisputed credit for getting the nomenclature correct? I’m just asking. He did come from the island where paddle craft were called a canoes.

English nomenclature
My grandparents and great aunt and uncle came over from that Island to become American citizens. Throughout my childhood I was subjected to pronouncements of how things were (more correctly) done there, usually with some arrogance. I do have some sensitivity to this issue.



Juxtapose this with the American arrogance of throwing away 130-150 years of history because their present usage and present naming of paddlecraft doesn’t happen to fit the 130-150 years of historical record.



I guess I belong to a nation of one, But it’s a great nation in my own mind.



Dave

So I think they are all canoes?
I think the way it was in England they were all called canoes. Certainly the magazines at that time made it seem that way. And they named it the British Canoe Union not the British paddling union or the British kayak union.



But they did distinguish some canoes as being in a subset called kayaks. I always thought the Rob Roy was a canoe that fit in the kayak subset. But perhaps it is rolling that makes it a kayak not the sitting on the floor.



In which case all those white water canoes you have to roll should be more correctly called kayaks.



Tomorrow I’m going to paddle my sit on top and try my new sail. It cannot be rolled, even expert have failed, I dare you to try it. You sit in it and cannot kneel in it. So I don’t call it a kayak or a canoe. It simply is my “Sea Pig” and it is the only boat for coastal trips over 15 miles per day.

have to agree with Tommy
If I am not sitting on the floor, with agonized ham strings and back muscles then I am in a canoe.



Comfort=Canoe

Misery=kayak



Ps: has any body else noticed that kayaK still spells

misery when spelled backwards? Kayak !

With Apologies to Bart
I know plenty of canoeists paddling both open and decked canoes who roll when they need to. Rolling seems to have more to do with the water paddled than the craft.



The problem seems to be finding clear distinctions between canoe and kayak.

Many people believe that canoes are open and kayaks have decks. For me rec kayaks with HUGE cockpits, sit on tops, whitewater C1’s, and decked expedition canoes make that an uncertain distinction at best.

My contention is that the general tools and techniques make a clear distinction. So Tommy’s Rule could also state that any craft paddled like a canoe, is a canoe. And any craft paddled like a kayak, is a kayak.

The fact that some whitewater kayak hulls are routinely converted to decked canoes simply by changing the outfitting to permit single blade techniques seems to support that.

Yes by my definition the Rushtons et al are kayaks as are the adirondack pack boats. Is that a bad thing? Is there some onus to being a kayak?