That was our first canoe, 17' Lowe made in Lebanon, MO. It was heavy, hot in the summer, cold in the winter. Aluminum does tend to "Hang" on rocks in shallow water. But I could stand to look for my line, the seats were fairly comfortable, it will definitely paddle more efficiently and easily than the Pelican. We paddled a lot of different Ozark streams and it served us well. I sold it because my wife had difficulty helping me load it (mine was 80 something lbs) and it was too heavy for me to load myself all the time. But that canoe is a very good choice for a "Starter" canoe here in the Ozarks. WW http://www.pbase.com/ozarkpaddler/image/89928676
what is it about those blow moulded … plastic Oldtown seats (the new style , not the old flat ones) .
Well , they are contoured and make for very comfortable butt fit , they are filled with extra waterproof floatation (waterproof means the floatation won’t rot , shrink or absorb water) , they are strong (very) , they need zero care , they are structural , they also have adjustable seat backs (but I removed them right away w/o ever even trying them) , they are the type of seat that one can sit in all day long and be happy about it … add a thin pad layer to the contour if you need to , we don’t … they are solid smooth construction from side to side , no holes or gaps to snag on your butt cloths and things in pockets , the shaped contour keeps your butt planted when the canoe starts rocking and rolling , that shaped contour also eliminates the straight edge on the front of a seat that puts unnessasary pressure on the underside of your thighs (like straight front edge wood woven seats , planks , aluminum seats , etc. that “do” pressure the underside of the thigh) . All facts , OT poly seats are good stuff for all the reasons mentioned .
...... either that or you just want to pick a fight and be argumentative .
Floatation is what "helps" to make the load ride higher (it's called bounyancy) , and in Oldtown's case it's a fantastic ballance in draft-freeboard verses load capacity .
I can run my Expedition 169 through 3" of water (or very shallow water in any case) with a 500 lb. load and it smooths right on through . That bounyancy due to full hull floatation (and hull design) also raises faster when it does touch something below , it's a rebound effect .
I think your problem is gbg , you think too much and come up with inncorrect comprehensions .
A canoe with a given load (call it X lbs.) will displace that amount of water vol. required to equal the exact same weight X as the canoe load . Some will float higher in the water (less draft) , some will float lower (more draft) , but both will displace the same amount of water by weight X .
Let's see , a PFD is filled with floatation , why does it hold you up ??
Why do things that float come "up" to the surface , and things that sink go "down" to the bottom (like aluminum) ??
Why do things that have more bouyancy float higher with a given load X than things with less bouyancy do ??
Why does an ice cube float and a rock sink ??
Why does a cu. vol. of salt water weigh less than an equal cu. vol. of fresh water ??
...... everything I've said is apllicable to the OP .
OP is purchasing a canoe for the very first time , he has choices/options that are not Pelicans or Aluminums and I am encouraging him to weigh those choices , consider the advantages/disadvantages by providing information , explanations and reasoning .
Why don't you go out and purchase an aluminum canoe gbg , it's your boat of facination , why paddle anything else ... your such a knucklehead sometimes , gbg !!
The OP has far better choices available to him ... every one here has litterally confirmed most all of what I've said , but say to OP , get the aluminum .
The OP lives in AR and intends to see rivers ... AR has great mountains and rocky rivers ... he will most likely desire to expand to those rivers after day one and see what they are all about ... everyone "loves" the rivers and quickly feels comfortable with them , and then it starts to get more interesting and fun , quiter , more serene , less people , more wildlife critters ... great fishing , adventure , explore , possible camp !!
This fella will love the rivers , he lives in AR , it's in his blood . Geesh , this fella is going to take his kid into the great unknown and show him that life is not all concrete and asphalt , but things of great amazement and beauty exist beyond the manmade habitats , things that build character and wisdom and give ballance and understanding to life ... the mountains and rivers that run through them draw us all if we but dare go and seek ... he will , I'm certain of it , and a canoe that will serve him tons better there is where I'm coming from . he'll find his way to the mountain rivers as all who have gone before have , I'd bet money on it ... it's in his blood , and his kid's too !!
But for the OP's sake I will say , "an aluminum canoe will get you out there on the water too , it will just have "all" the disadvantages I've mentioned here" , and if you can avoid them , then why not do so ... that's all , not more , not less .
if a plastic boat gets a burr … … a gouge that has peel stick up , and can draw blood (especially on wet hands/skin) … an aluminum boat can draw much more blood .
...doesn't get it. Bouyancy is controlled by the overall weight of an object compared to its overall volume which is available for the displacement of water. The "density" of a floating boat is the overall weight divided by the overall volume as determined by the dimensions of the portion of the hull that is in contact with the water. What the boat is made of, or what it is carrying only contribute to the overall weight, not the volume, and thus only affect the overall density. Only when the boat becomes swamped does the density of the hull material or cargo become important, because in that case the volume of material bouyed up by water is only the volume of the hull material and cargo itself, not the empty space within the hull. Don't hurl insults when you don't understand this. It is very easy to come up with examples if you'd like. Do you think a 200-pound dugout canoe floats higher in the water than a 70-pound aluminum canoe just because aluminum sinks in water and wood floats? That's just a more extreme example of the same principle I illustrated when comparing a poly boat to a slightly ligher aluminum one.
All of your examples miss the point completely and shows your lack of understanding. If you put 100 pounds of PFDs in the water, they will provide tremendous floatation for whatever object you care to attach to them. If you put 100 pounds of PFDs in your canoe, it becomes nothing more than 100 pounds of cargo (except that it is much more bulky cargo than normal), and they will make the boat sink deeper into the water exactly the same as 100 pounds of any other cargo. They will do nothing to help the boat float higher UNTILL the boat becomes swamped, because only then do all those PFDs displace water with their own volume rather than by means of the boat's hull. Again, when in a floating boat, 100 pounds of PFDs displace 100 pounds of water by sinking the hull more deeply into the water.
A rock would float if you could make it hollow, showing that it's the volume as determined by external dimensions that matters, not the material itself. You nearly showed a glimmer of understanding when you said that the same weight of water is displaced as the weight of the floating object, but everything else shows that the true concept eludes you. This really shouldn't be so difficult. Maybe if I get time later on, I'll try to find a link to some site that explains this on an elementary-school level, but until then, don't be so sure of yourself. You truely do not understand bouyancy. Let's leave hull shape alone for now too, but that's actually the most important thing controlling how a boat rides in rough water.
Try reading This guy has no plans to carry 500 pounds of gear, and thus plaidpaddler’s statement is quite relevant. The statement was probably relevant even with that load, but that isn’t what he was talking about.
You really need to read what people write, and that includes what I write. I am not enamored of aluminum canoes, but you insist that I am, not because I have said so, but because it makes it easy for you to villify my position that aluminum canoes are “okay” for what the OP describes. Lighten up. Really.
gbg , the OT hull that has the … … full floatation core is in contact with the water (it’s not inside the canoe being payload like persons , gear etc. … it’s floatation is reacting to the water , it’s floatation is resisting the desire to sink , it’s floatation is floating up (called bouyancy) … it helps the canoe hold up a greater payload , it floats higher for x payload . it’s all those gazzilions of tiny tiny air bubbles trapped in the floatation core . The poly and floatation core poly are lighter than water , they float “up” , and can carry a greater payload x than a single sheet aluminum boat .
You said it yourself with the 200 lb. wooden dugout canoe comparing it to the 70 lb. alumi,um canoe . The 200 lb. wooden dugout canoe floats that 200 lbs. up high like the 70 lb. alum. canoe … why is that ??
Because the wooden canoe is more bouyant . Now take a floatation core in an Oldtown , it doesn’t weigh 200 lbs. but has much greater bouyancy per pound than an aluminum canoe , so the floatation core has a reserve of bouyancy to carry a greater payload higher in the water than the aluminum canoe .
200 lbs. of PFD inside a canoe are 200 lbs. of payload … 200 lbs. of PFD in contact with the water are 200 lbs. of floatation bouyancy , resistence to sinking .
Got kids in school? Go see their science teacher. The floatation must DISPLACE water with its OWN VOLUME to aid floatation. Inside a floating hull, it's just weight.
I didn't say what you say I did about the dugout canoe. You incorrectly assumed the nature of how such a boat will float.
Any floatation material that cannot be surrounded by water is just weight. Build the hull out of it, and all the material on the opposite side of the surface that contacts the water is just weight, unless the boat is swamped. In that case, a hull made of a floating material will float and a hull made of metal will sink. Do you think the air bags in whitewater boats make them float higher when they are dry and upright? Any interior floatation, whether tied in, glued in, or built into the hull won't provide "its own" floatation unil its own volume is displacing water, rather than displacing water with an air-filled hull. Using your reasoning, filling the entire interior volume of a dugout canoe with the wood that was originally carved out of there would make if float higher than if it were empty (it will do the opposite). You still don't see what's going on here?
you vilify yourself gbg , i have no … … desire or intention to act such a way toward you .
You ask ask for it repeatedly by your insults and put downs , that’s why you are a knucklehead sometimes in my book .
I read all of what others post , I consider well and long what they are saying , I respect what they say and thier reasons for speaking it … I offer my insights , experience , explain them , and leave to others to consider my words and ponder them for validity , usefullness .
You gbg , call names , make personal put down coments … in return I declare you a knucklehead for doing such .
You won’t verify anything I’ve stated in this post referencing comparisons of advantage - disadvantage thoughts or opinion between an OT Expedition 169 (or any other similar plastic boat , high end , low end , whatever) , and the aluminum canoes … a thousand times the same things I have referenced to plastic boats as advantage have been repeated , paraphrased , expounded on and upheld throughout this site , year after year , after year by so many others .
I speak and write as simply and clearly as I am able . I don’t mince words or play silly mind games games … my words speak what you here and I believe are very understandable and hopefully informative .
If anything I say is in error , then it should be challenged and corrected in a constructive manner … my intentions to you gbg , are to show me what I have stated in error and “explain” why you feel it so … then we can talk about and see how it works out , boils down .
...... they are fixed position , just like all the other fixed position type seats such as seen in canoes that cost thousand more . No they are not sliding or IQ that to me are worthless contraptions with many parts that outweigh thier usefullness , but others may disagree .
The contoured tandem Oldtown seats are designed to be sat on and forgotten about (as in tandem canoe) , not put your heels under while kneeling as in a solo canoe .
You say I sound more and more like Pamlico 14 all the time ... you are such a knucklehead gbg !!!
Pammy had some issues with people picking on him , he was a young man without the skills and life experience to deal with knuckleheads like yourself ... I on the other hand am a man , have sound control of my emotions and would punch you in the nose off if you wanted me to , w/o the slightest show of emotion .
Pammy was also quite intellengent and acted extremely mature for his age against the knuckleheads who always picked on him . A-holes found it fun to upset him on purpose , they worked overtime and applied much effort thinking about how to push his buttons and put him down ... the young man showed 10 times thier maturity in almost every case as I remember .
gbg , sometimes you act just like another one standing in line for thier knucklehead diploma ... pammy had it all over you gbg , you just couldn't know it .
I have stated what I and lots of other people have experienced in regard to the suitability and durability of aluminum canoes. I've never said they were the cat's meow, only that they work reasonably well and don't need to be avoided like the plague when it comes to the kind of use described by the original poster. In addition, no one has said anything to support your extreme position, in spite of your insistance that this is so (no else has experience rivets popping out, leaks, or dents making the boat look like a car wreck as a result of normal use on rocky rivers, so clearly that's your view and now one elses, so far) If I point out a bit of short-sightedness on you r part because you never believe that high-quality boats and gear have any significant advantages over cheap plastic stuff, it's because I believe it to be so. Instead of trying to think of every concievable way in which an aluminum boat might have a disadvantage and not even acknowleging that many of these factors are easy to deal with, try actually reading the words that I and others have written. Your take on this whole thing is way out of proportion to anything anyone else has said.
Now, READ what I wrote in previous posts and see how THIS example is within the terms I already described for a swamped boat. With those cut sections, you have removed the ability of the hull to displace water by means of its overall shape, and now all it can do is displace water by means of the volume of the material itself. There's a big difference between displacing water with a solid material and displacing water with a material shaped to include air within the volume of displacement. I already described this situation in principle, but you are not reading carefully enough.
...... I have mentioned many things in comparison between plastic canoes and aluminum canoes .
They were mentioned solely for the educational purpose of the OP to consider and think about , he may consider them or ignore them at his will . My responsibilty here is to make such things known about for consideration ... I've long ago discovered what's available , what it does , what strengths and weaknesses each have to offer ... I can make educated discisions and choices that I perefer from what I have understanding of ... it's not my responsibility to make those decisions for others ... I just offer them food for thought (options) to consider when making such decisions .
I have some friends who have owned a Coleman RamX 15' for probably near two decades . They leave it outside on the ground , they are not avid paddlers and probably haven't used the canoe in 10 years . Other friends of mine barrow thier Coleman RamX sometimes and go paddling with us ... That ol Coleman is a fine little paddler and in is not warped or distorted in any way ... it's actually kind of a tough little boat . I doubt it would hold up well in the mountain rivers for prolonged use there , but it's a good back water and pond boat for a reasonably light load . That little ol Coleman has all the same advantages over the aluminum canoe that I've mentioned so far , it's just not going to be as tough as the old Grummans are , but in mant ways I feel it's the superior canoe by a large margin .
I don't like all the plastic interior infrastructure I see in the Pelicans . I don't believe the ol Coleman RamX 15's are anything like the newer Pelicans , completely different construction designs .
The old Colemans have a pretty tough single layer poly hide ... I think (but am not certain) that the Pelicans are using two seperate thin skins , sort of an exterior hide for the hull shape , and an interior (for support) hide to help maintain hull shape . I've seen how the sun deforms the interior thin plastic hide and makes it pull away from the exterior hull skin , looks wrinkled and funky , twisted and deformed by the sun and heat .
Are there no limits to the way you will stretch your interpretation of these things? So far there are none.
All seats in canoes "costing thousands more" can be adjusted to suit your needs. Sure, seats that adjust on the fly are rare, but I'm talking about making the boat fit the needs of the paddler. With traditional seats, it only takes simple hand tools and a few minutes of your time put the seat at whatever height and whatever angle you desire, and there's no conceivable way that you don't already know that if you've been on this site as long as you have. Also, kneeling in a canoe is NOT restricted to solo canoes at all, and it was the normal practice for decades in tandem canoes before the average person ever had a chance to see a solo canoe simply because the style barely even existed. I have no doubt that you are aware of that too. To think otherwise makes no sense, especially with all that experince you have.
I'm a long way from being the first person on these boards to knock the lack of versatility of those huge, box-like seats that are bonded to the floor so you can't kneel and which can't be altered in any way (short tearing them out and replacing them). So, I ask if this super-comfortable seat might meet the needs of the average serious paddler by posing a simple question and look what happens. You throw convention out the window just so you can be right and I can be wrong.
Anyway, my Pam_14 analogy was in reference to the way that for every aspect of your favorite canoe that is the way it is simply due to cutting costs for the mass market, you manage to find a way of saying it's the best thing ever. I thought you might understand that. My mistake.
Old Town Seats The blow moulded seats used in the Discovery series do allow kneeling. they are thicker and heavier than the usual Old town cane seats. They do offer greater durability and increased floatation when swamped. Both good things for outfitters. Pilotwngz will think they also make the canoe float higher in the water cause they are bouyant; but their extra 5 pounds of weight will add to the total hull weigh and displacement. When swamped they do help to keep the hull upright. All the hull floatation from the core tends to make a swamped Discovery turn over. The bouyant core in the hull bottom wants to rise to the surface.
Guess we need to assembly a Lowe Aluminum canoe and a Discovery 169 with rotomoulded seats and put them in the water and measure the displacement depth.
I checked all the old Aluminum brochures and the old 1990 buyers guides. 17’ aluminum hulls from 0.040" aluminum weighed in the mid 60’s. 0.060" aluminum hulls were at 80# depending on the number of ribs and the keel. The Grumman and Michicraft livery hulls with 0.060" hulls and WW rib layout were the heaviest, around the 85# weight of a Discovery 169. And the 169 weight is 85# with cane seats. There has been no change in the Old Town published weight since they went to rotomoulded seats. Its been the same for them in their royalex canoes; the Penobscot published weight is with aluminum trim and cane seats, not the standard vinyl gunwales.
But all this Discovery vs Aluminum stuff is not what the OP asked. His question was Lowe aluminum vs. Pelican Dakota; and the Dakota is a very different canoe from the Disovery. It is akin to the Rockport.
Guideboatguy, thank you for your attempt at explaining the bouyancy physics. Pilotwingz is missing it about the foam core not doing a darn thing till the hull swamps. The hull could be made of stainless steel; if the shape and weight are the same; the floating displacement will be identical.
May the Original Poster enjoy his Lowe and later we can totally baffle him with our preferences in more advanced hulls.
If I wanted to say the little ol Coleman RamX 15' is a better canoe than an aluminum canoe ... that's what I would have said .
I did not say that did I ??
The aluminum canoe has "some" favorable advantages over the Coleman RamX . In the same breath I will say that the little Coleman RamX 15' has advantages over the aluminum canoe also .
As for your concern that I may not know diddly squat about either of them ... I know all that needs be known about both of them , that from experience and plain common sense . So what do think about that jackl , satisfy your reading into words that aren't there , written or spoken .
Some people hear another say something that was spoken clearly , directly and understandable ... and they have the ability to believe the person meant something other than what was said . Are you one of those type people with that ability jackl ??
The attitude you just directed towards me in your post was arrogant . If you had wished to know whether or not I believe a Coleman RamX is a better canoe than an aluminum ... you could of simply asked as opposed to acting like a knucklehead . And just because you opened your arrogance with the word "IF" , does not excuse you in my book . I think you have "assumed too much" .