Old aluminum vs. new Ram-X

Can you adjust them? Can you put …
…your feet under them? Seriously, you are sounding more like Pamlico_14 all the time.

gbg , the OT hull that has the …
… full floatation core is in contact with the water (it’s not inside the canoe being payload like persons , gear etc. … it’s floatation is reacting to the water , it’s floatation is resisting the desire to sink , it’s floatation is floating up (called bouyancy) … it helps the canoe hold up a greater payload , it floats higher for x payload . it’s all those gazzilions of tiny tiny air bubbles trapped in the floatation core . The poly and floatation core poly are lighter than water , they float “up” , and can carry a greater payload x than a single sheet aluminum boat .



You said it yourself with the 200 lb. wooden dugout canoe comparing it to the 70 lb. alumi,um canoe . The 200 lb. wooden dugout canoe floats that 200 lbs. up high like the 70 lb. alum. canoe … why is that ??



Because the wooden canoe is more bouyant . Now take a floatation core in an Oldtown , it doesn’t weigh 200 lbs. but has much greater bouyancy per pound than an aluminum canoe , so the floatation core has a reserve of bouyancy to carry a greater payload higher in the water than the aluminum canoe .



200 lbs. of PFD inside a canoe are 200 lbs. of payload … 200 lbs. of PFD in contact with the water are 200 lbs. of floatation bouyancy , resistence to sinking .

I give up.

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 2:01 PM EST –

Got kids in school? Go see their science teacher. The floatation must DISPLACE water with its OWN VOLUME to aid floatation. Inside a floating hull, it's just weight.

I didn't say what you say I did about the dugout canoe. You incorrectly assumed the nature of how such a boat will float.

Any floatation material that cannot be surrounded by water is just weight. Build the hull out of it, and all the material on the opposite side of the surface that contacts the water is just weight, unless the boat is swamped. In that case, a hull made of a floating material will float and a hull made of metal will sink. Do you think the air bags in whitewater boats make them float higher when they are dry and upright? Any interior floatation, whether tied in, glued in, or built into the hull won't provide "its own" floatation unil its own volume is displacing water, rather than displacing water with an air-filled hull. Using your reasoning, filling the entire interior volume of a dugout canoe with the wood that was originally carved out of there would make if float higher than if it were empty (it will do the opposite). You still don't see what's going on here?

you vilify yourself gbg , i have no …
… desire or intention to act such a way toward you .



You ask ask for it repeatedly by your insults and put downs , that’s why you are a knucklehead sometimes in my book .



I read all of what others post , I consider well and long what they are saying , I respect what they say and thier reasons for speaking it … I offer my insights , experience , explain them , and leave to others to consider my words and ponder them for validity , usefullness .



You gbg , call names , make personal put down coments … in return I declare you a knucklehead for doing such .



You won’t verify anything I’ve stated in this post referencing comparisons of advantage - disadvantage thoughts or opinion between an OT Expedition 169 (or any other similar plastic boat , high end , low end , whatever) , and the aluminum canoes … a thousand times the same things I have referenced to plastic boats as advantage have been repeated , paraphrased , expounded on and upheld throughout this site , year after year , after year by so many others .



I speak and write as simply and clearly as I am able . I don’t mince words or play silly mind games games … my words speak what you here and I believe are very understandable and hopefully informative .



If anything I say is in error , then it should be challenged and corrected in a constructive manner … my intentions to you gbg , are to show me what I have stated in error and “explain” why you feel it so … then we can talk about and see how it works out , boils down .

no gbg , you can’t adjust them …

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 2:40 PM EST –

...... they are fixed position , just like all the other fixed position type seats such as seen in canoes that cost thousand more . No they are not sliding or IQ that to me are worthless contraptions with many parts that outweigh thier usefullness , but others may disagree .

The contoured tandem Oldtown seats are designed to be sat on and forgotten about (as in tandem canoe) , not put your heels under while kneeling as in a solo canoe .

You say I sound more and more like Pamlico 14 all the time ... you are such a knucklehead gbg !!!

Pammy had some issues with people picking on him , he was a young man without the skills and life experience to deal with knuckleheads like yourself ... I on the other hand am a man , have sound control of my emotions and would punch you in the nose off if you wanted me to , w/o the slightest show of emotion .

Pammy was also quite intellengent and acted extremely mature for his age against the knuckleheads who always picked on him . A-holes found it fun to upset him on purpose , they worked overtime and applied much effort thinking about how to push his buttons and put him down ... the young man showed 10 times thier maturity in almost every case as I remember .

gbg , sometimes you act just like another one standing in line for thier knucklehead diploma ... pammy had it all over you gbg , you just couldn't know it .

cut a one foot square section out of …
… the bottom of an OT canoe , cut the same out of an aluminum .



Set them in the water and push down on them … what happens ??



The OT hull core resist and floats back up (called bouyancy) … what happens to the aluminum square ??



Lighter than water or heavier than water by mass as in common weight terminolgy (not volumn) , no more , no less .

Again, try reading

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 5:57 PM EST –

I have stated what I and lots of other people have experienced in regard to the suitability and durability of aluminum canoes. I've never said they were the cat's meow, only that they work reasonably well and don't need to be avoided like the plague when it comes to the kind of use described by the original poster. In addition, no one has said anything to support your extreme position, in spite of your insistance that this is so (no else has experience rivets popping out, leaks, or dents making the boat look like a car wreck as a result of normal use on rocky rivers, so clearly that's your view and now one elses, so far) If I point out a bit of short-sightedness on you r part because you never believe that high-quality boats and gear have any significant advantages over cheap plastic stuff, it's because I believe it to be so. Instead of trying to think of every concievable way in which an aluminum boat might have a disadvantage and not even acknowleging that many of these factors are easy to deal with, try actually reading the words that I and others have written. Your take on this whole thing is way out of proportion to anything anyone else has said.

Exactly!

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 3:06 PM EST –

Now, READ what I wrote in previous posts and see how THIS example is within the terms I already described for a swamped boat. With those cut sections, you have removed the ability of the hull to displace water by means of its overall shape, and now all it can do is displace water by means of the volume of the material itself. There's a big difference between displacing water with a solid material and displacing water with a material shaped to include air within the volume of displacement. I already described this situation in principle, but you are not reading carefully enough.

my take is my take gbg …

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 4:01 PM EST –

...... I have mentioned many things in comparison between plastic canoes and aluminum canoes .

They were mentioned solely for the educational purpose of the OP to consider and think about , he may consider them or ignore them at his will . My responsibilty here is to make such things known about for consideration ... I've long ago discovered what's available , what it does , what strengths and weaknesses each have to offer ... I can make educated discisions and choices that I perefer from what I have understanding of ... it's not my responsibility to make those decisions for others ... I just offer them food for thought (options) to consider when making such decisions .

I have some friends who have owned a Coleman RamX 15' for probably near two decades . They leave it outside on the ground , they are not avid paddlers and probably haven't used the canoe in 10 years . Other friends of mine barrow thier Coleman RamX sometimes and go paddling with us ... That ol Coleman is a fine little paddler and in is not warped or distorted in any way ... it's actually kind of a tough little boat . I doubt it would hold up well in the mountain rivers for prolonged use there , but it's a good back water and pond boat for a reasonably light load . That little ol Coleman has all the same advantages over the aluminum canoe that I've mentioned so far , it's just not going to be as tough as the old Grummans are , but in mant ways I feel it's the superior canoe by a large margin .

I don't like all the plastic interior infrastructure I see in the Pelicans . I don't believe the ol Coleman RamX 15's are anything like the newer Pelicans , completely different construction designs .

The old Colemans have a pretty tough single layer poly hide ... I think (but am not certain) that the Pelicans are using two seperate thin skins , sort of an exterior hide for the hull shape , and an interior (for support) hide to help maintain hull shape . I've seen how the sun deforms the interior thin plastic hide and makes it pull away from the exterior hull skin , looks wrinkled and funky , twisted and deformed by the sun and heat .


Seats - Good Grief!

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 6:17 PM EST –

Are there no limits to the way you will stretch your interpretation of these things? So far there are none.

All seats in canoes "costing thousands more" can be adjusted to suit your needs. Sure, seats that adjust on the fly are rare, but I'm talking about making the boat fit the needs of the paddler. With traditional seats, it only takes simple hand tools and a few minutes of your time put the seat at whatever height and whatever angle you desire, and there's no conceivable way that you don't already know that if you've been on this site as long as you have. Also, kneeling in a canoe is NOT restricted to solo canoes at all, and it was the normal practice for decades in tandem canoes before the average person ever had a chance to see a solo canoe simply because the style barely even existed. I have no doubt that you are aware of that too. To think otherwise makes no sense, especially with all that experince you have.

I'm a long way from being the first person on these boards to knock the lack of versatility of those huge, box-like seats that are bonded to the floor so you can't kneel and which can't be altered in any way (short tearing them out and replacing them). So, I ask if this super-comfortable seat might meet the needs of the average serious paddler by posing a simple question and look what happens. You throw convention out the window just so you can be right and I can be wrong.

Anyway, my Pam_14 analogy was in reference to the way that for every aspect of your favorite canoe that is the way it is simply due to cutting costs for the mass market, you manage to find a way of saying it's the best thing ever. I thought you might understand that. My mistake.

If you are saying that the Coleman
Ram-X is a better canoe than a aluminum canoe, then you don’t know diddly squat about either of them !



Jack L

Old Town Seats
The blow moulded seats used in the Discovery series do allow kneeling. they are thicker and heavier than the usual Old town cane seats. They do offer greater durability and increased floatation when swamped. Both good things for outfitters. Pilotwngz will think they also make the canoe float higher in the water cause they are bouyant; but their extra 5 pounds of weight will add to the total hull weigh and displacement. When swamped they do help to keep the hull upright. All the hull floatation from the core tends to make a swamped Discovery turn over. The bouyant core in the hull bottom wants to rise to the surface.

Guess we need to assembly a Lowe Aluminum canoe and a Discovery 169 with rotomoulded seats and put them in the water and measure the displacement depth.

I checked all the old Aluminum brochures and the old 1990 buyers guides. 17’ aluminum hulls from 0.040" aluminum weighed in the mid 60’s. 0.060" aluminum hulls were at 80# depending on the number of ribs and the keel. The Grumman and Michicraft livery hulls with 0.060" hulls and WW rib layout were the heaviest, around the 85# weight of a Discovery 169. And the 169 weight is 85# with cane seats. There has been no change in the Old Town published weight since they went to rotomoulded seats. Its been the same for them in their royalex canoes; the Penobscot published weight is with aluminum trim and cane seats, not the standard vinyl gunwales.

But all this Discovery vs Aluminum stuff is not what the OP asked. His question was Lowe aluminum vs. Pelican Dakota; and the Dakota is a very different canoe from the Disovery. It is akin to the Rockport.

Guideboatguy, thank you for your attempt at explaining the bouyancy physics. Pilotwingz is missing it about the foam core not doing a darn thing till the hull swamps. The hull could be made of stainless steel; if the shape and weight are the same; the floating displacement will be identical.

May the Original Poster enjoy his Lowe and later we can totally baffle him with our preferences in more advanced hulls.

Bill

what , are you another one jackl …

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 11:34 PM EST –

...... who can't read what I said ??

If I wanted to say the little ol Coleman RamX 15' is a better canoe than an aluminum canoe ... that's what I would have said .

I did not say that did I ??

The aluminum canoe has "some" favorable advantages over the Coleman RamX . In the same breath I will say that the little Coleman RamX 15' has advantages over the aluminum canoe also .

As for your concern that I may not know diddly squat about either of them ... I know all that needs be known about both of them , that from experience and plain common sense . So what do think about that jackl , satisfy your reading into words that aren't there , written or spoken .

Some people hear another say something that was spoken clearly , directly and understandable ... and they have the ability to believe the person meant something other than what was said . Are you one of those type people with that ability jackl ??

The attitude you just directed towards me in your post was arrogant . If you had wished to know whether or not I believe a Coleman RamX is a better canoe than an aluminum ... you could of simply asked as opposed to acting like a knucklehead . And just because you opened your arrogance with the word "IF" , does not excuse you in my book . I think you have "assumed too much" .

gbg , you ask if the Oldtown seats

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 11:05 PM EST –

..... were adjustable . I said no they are not adjustable . They are fixed position .

They can be repositioned in the same way as the wood frame seats in expensive canoes can be . They can be lowered . They can be tilted , etc. , they can be moved forward and rearward , I call that repositioning because it requires changes . They can be swapped out for a different style seat as well if one desires . They are not adjustable as in sliding or IQ type as I previously mentioned .

The Oldtown seats are fastened to gunnels by through bolt , pretty much the same way the wood frame seats in canoes costing thousands more are .

What are you talking about floor mounted box style seats for ?? You asked about the Oldtown seats I mentioned as if you don't know what they are , how they attach , what can be done with them .

You understand what there is to understand about the Oldtown seats , don't you ??

Again you act like a knucklehead making degtading accusations about me , gbg (knock , knock , knock) . I'm not stretching anything in my interpretation as you have claimed ... I spoke about Oldtown seats , made some seat observations and wrote some about those observations in a post on this thread ... simple as that , no stretch , no dramatization , no fiction , no mind game , no illusion , no animation , no "hidden" meanings .

you act like a knucklehead also pp …
… pilot would not think the floataion in the seats would make the canoe float higher (unless swamped) .



Did you say the bouyant core in the Oldtown wants to rise to the surface ??



Hmmm , the bouyant core wants to rise to the surface . Does that help the hull float higher in the water with an X payload ?? Does that mean the hull material itself has bouyancy beyond the displacement factor ??


I’ve offered about as many things …
… as I am aware of , thoughts for consideration , as to why the OP might want to consider other canoes , other palstic constructions (OT’s 3 Layer Superlinear Polyethylene , Royalex , or other similar canoe constructions) , other than either the Aluminum or Pelican .



I think the OP has a right to hear the comparison things I’ve mentioned and the explanations of them .



nosirrahg , if you purchase the aluminum canoe , I believe you will enjoy it very much and wish you good journeys …


I am sorry to say I read the whole thrd.
Pilot, you don’t know WTF you are talking about. From what a good paddling canoe is, all the way to how buoyancy works. For you, I think it is STFU and learn before you pipe up. Your facts aren’t facts, your opinions are puerile.



I agree with the idea it doesn’t sound like you have enough experience to gauge what you are talking about. It really sounds like you are arguing these points to defend your own decisions rather than offer seasoned advice. Not long ago you were here asking questions as an unabashed novice, now you’re purporting to know what’s what. I think you don’t know enough to know what you don’t know.

Your words -Not mine !
"it’s just not going to be as tough as the old Grummans are , but in many ways I feel it’s the superior canoe by a large margin ".



Jack L


good enough jackl ,
… in “many” ways I feel the little Coleman RamX 15’ is a superior canoe by a large margin .



And in many ways it is … most of which have already been mentioned here by myself . If you’d like to discuss my reasoning behind that statement , we could do that .



The little Coleman is good paddler with a light load . It’s single layer plastic hull is tough and I have yet to see one all twisted up , to the contrary they have all been straight and undeformed . It is a single piece “plastic” hull with tubular reinforcement . It has a number of the advantages of plastic over aluminum construction (not all , but a number of them) .



Just checked the reviews here on p.net about the Coleman RamX 15 , about 43 of them rate it an 8-10 . The be fair , about 8 of them rate it a 4 or less .


you’ve said “nothing” kanoo …

– Last Updated: Sep-17-10 2:30 PM EST –

....... all you've done is make degrading broad sweep statements towards me , and have offered nothing to support them other than your arrogance . The words you've choosen to address me are fighting words (STFU) , instigating pushing words ... in person I'd insist you back them up ...

I first paddled a canoe in 71 ... since that time have spent many miles and hours paddling . I own 2 canoes (both Oldtowns , one 3 Layer Super Linear , the other Royalex) , and have paddled about 9-10 different ones , spending enough time in each to know enough about them . I've "never" asked questions here as you say "like an unabashed novice" ... I have asked a few questions about some things , but very very few , canoes are not a difficult thing to understand , they are simple things . Paddling a canoe is not a difficult thing , it's a simple thing (heavy WW and freestyle are not included in that statement because they are advanced disaplines , niether of which skills have I aquired) .

You made the statement "your facts aren't facts " ... another broadsweep useless comment . What "facts" in particular do you speak of , and what factual opposition do you have to offer in support of your opinion ... I will support my words with further explanation than has already been offered if you want .

I came on p.net in 06 , and know the difference between a knucklehead like yourself and someone who has something useful to add to a conversation . I could make degrading broadsweep statements about you as well , but that would offer nothing of worth and then I would be acting like a knucklehead .

For your information I do know what a good paddling canoe is . And here is a clue , a good paddling canoe has to be well suited to what it is being used for , the enviroment it is in , and not all use enviroments are the same . What has favorable advantages in one enviroment can be the worst possible canoe in another .

High end super light expensive canoes can easily fall into worst possible canoe choice .