Old aluminum vs. new Ram-X

no gbg , you can’t adjust them …

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 2:40 PM EST –

...... they are fixed position , just like all the other fixed position type seats such as seen in canoes that cost thousand more . No they are not sliding or IQ that to me are worthless contraptions with many parts that outweigh thier usefullness , but others may disagree .

The contoured tandem Oldtown seats are designed to be sat on and forgotten about (as in tandem canoe) , not put your heels under while kneeling as in a solo canoe .

You say I sound more and more like Pamlico 14 all the time ... you are such a knucklehead gbg !!!

Pammy had some issues with people picking on him , he was a young man without the skills and life experience to deal with knuckleheads like yourself ... I on the other hand am a man , have sound control of my emotions and would punch you in the nose off if you wanted me to , w/o the slightest show of emotion .

Pammy was also quite intellengent and acted extremely mature for his age against the knuckleheads who always picked on him . A-holes found it fun to upset him on purpose , they worked overtime and applied much effort thinking about how to push his buttons and put him down ... the young man showed 10 times thier maturity in almost every case as I remember .

gbg , sometimes you act just like another one standing in line for thier knucklehead diploma ... pammy had it all over you gbg , you just couldn't know it .

cut a one foot square section out of …
… the bottom of an OT canoe , cut the same out of an aluminum .



Set them in the water and push down on them … what happens ??



The OT hull core resist and floats back up (called bouyancy) … what happens to the aluminum square ??



Lighter than water or heavier than water by mass as in common weight terminolgy (not volumn) , no more , no less .

Again, try reading

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 5:57 PM EST –

I have stated what I and lots of other people have experienced in regard to the suitability and durability of aluminum canoes. I've never said they were the cat's meow, only that they work reasonably well and don't need to be avoided like the plague when it comes to the kind of use described by the original poster. In addition, no one has said anything to support your extreme position, in spite of your insistance that this is so (no else has experience rivets popping out, leaks, or dents making the boat look like a car wreck as a result of normal use on rocky rivers, so clearly that's your view and now one elses, so far) If I point out a bit of short-sightedness on you r part because you never believe that high-quality boats and gear have any significant advantages over cheap plastic stuff, it's because I believe it to be so. Instead of trying to think of every concievable way in which an aluminum boat might have a disadvantage and not even acknowleging that many of these factors are easy to deal with, try actually reading the words that I and others have written. Your take on this whole thing is way out of proportion to anything anyone else has said.

Exactly!

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 3:06 PM EST –

Now, READ what I wrote in previous posts and see how THIS example is within the terms I already described for a swamped boat. With those cut sections, you have removed the ability of the hull to displace water by means of its overall shape, and now all it can do is displace water by means of the volume of the material itself. There's a big difference between displacing water with a solid material and displacing water with a material shaped to include air within the volume of displacement. I already described this situation in principle, but you are not reading carefully enough.

my take is my take gbg …

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 4:01 PM EST –

...... I have mentioned many things in comparison between plastic canoes and aluminum canoes .

They were mentioned solely for the educational purpose of the OP to consider and think about , he may consider them or ignore them at his will . My responsibilty here is to make such things known about for consideration ... I've long ago discovered what's available , what it does , what strengths and weaknesses each have to offer ... I can make educated discisions and choices that I perefer from what I have understanding of ... it's not my responsibility to make those decisions for others ... I just offer them food for thought (options) to consider when making such decisions .

I have some friends who have owned a Coleman RamX 15' for probably near two decades . They leave it outside on the ground , they are not avid paddlers and probably haven't used the canoe in 10 years . Other friends of mine barrow thier Coleman RamX sometimes and go paddling with us ... That ol Coleman is a fine little paddler and in is not warped or distorted in any way ... it's actually kind of a tough little boat . I doubt it would hold up well in the mountain rivers for prolonged use there , but it's a good back water and pond boat for a reasonably light load . That little ol Coleman has all the same advantages over the aluminum canoe that I've mentioned so far , it's just not going to be as tough as the old Grummans are , but in mant ways I feel it's the superior canoe by a large margin .

I don't like all the plastic interior infrastructure I see in the Pelicans . I don't believe the ol Coleman RamX 15's are anything like the newer Pelicans , completely different construction designs .

The old Colemans have a pretty tough single layer poly hide ... I think (but am not certain) that the Pelicans are using two seperate thin skins , sort of an exterior hide for the hull shape , and an interior (for support) hide to help maintain hull shape . I've seen how the sun deforms the interior thin plastic hide and makes it pull away from the exterior hull skin , looks wrinkled and funky , twisted and deformed by the sun and heat .


Seats - Good Grief!

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 6:17 PM EST –

Are there no limits to the way you will stretch your interpretation of these things? So far there are none.

All seats in canoes "costing thousands more" can be adjusted to suit your needs. Sure, seats that adjust on the fly are rare, but I'm talking about making the boat fit the needs of the paddler. With traditional seats, it only takes simple hand tools and a few minutes of your time put the seat at whatever height and whatever angle you desire, and there's no conceivable way that you don't already know that if you've been on this site as long as you have. Also, kneeling in a canoe is NOT restricted to solo canoes at all, and it was the normal practice for decades in tandem canoes before the average person ever had a chance to see a solo canoe simply because the style barely even existed. I have no doubt that you are aware of that too. To think otherwise makes no sense, especially with all that experince you have.

I'm a long way from being the first person on these boards to knock the lack of versatility of those huge, box-like seats that are bonded to the floor so you can't kneel and which can't be altered in any way (short tearing them out and replacing them). So, I ask if this super-comfortable seat might meet the needs of the average serious paddler by posing a simple question and look what happens. You throw convention out the window just so you can be right and I can be wrong.

Anyway, my Pam_14 analogy was in reference to the way that for every aspect of your favorite canoe that is the way it is simply due to cutting costs for the mass market, you manage to find a way of saying it's the best thing ever. I thought you might understand that. My mistake.

If you are saying that the Coleman
Ram-X is a better canoe than a aluminum canoe, then you don’t know diddly squat about either of them !



Jack L

Old Town Seats
The blow moulded seats used in the Discovery series do allow kneeling. they are thicker and heavier than the usual Old town cane seats. They do offer greater durability and increased floatation when swamped. Both good things for outfitters. Pilotwngz will think they also make the canoe float higher in the water cause they are bouyant; but their extra 5 pounds of weight will add to the total hull weigh and displacement. When swamped they do help to keep the hull upright. All the hull floatation from the core tends to make a swamped Discovery turn over. The bouyant core in the hull bottom wants to rise to the surface.

Guess we need to assembly a Lowe Aluminum canoe and a Discovery 169 with rotomoulded seats and put them in the water and measure the displacement depth.

I checked all the old Aluminum brochures and the old 1990 buyers guides. 17’ aluminum hulls from 0.040" aluminum weighed in the mid 60’s. 0.060" aluminum hulls were at 80# depending on the number of ribs and the keel. The Grumman and Michicraft livery hulls with 0.060" hulls and WW rib layout were the heaviest, around the 85# weight of a Discovery 169. And the 169 weight is 85# with cane seats. There has been no change in the Old Town published weight since they went to rotomoulded seats. Its been the same for them in their royalex canoes; the Penobscot published weight is with aluminum trim and cane seats, not the standard vinyl gunwales.

But all this Discovery vs Aluminum stuff is not what the OP asked. His question was Lowe aluminum vs. Pelican Dakota; and the Dakota is a very different canoe from the Disovery. It is akin to the Rockport.

Guideboatguy, thank you for your attempt at explaining the bouyancy physics. Pilotwingz is missing it about the foam core not doing a darn thing till the hull swamps. The hull could be made of stainless steel; if the shape and weight are the same; the floating displacement will be identical.

May the Original Poster enjoy his Lowe and later we can totally baffle him with our preferences in more advanced hulls.

Bill

what , are you another one jackl …

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 11:34 PM EST –

...... who can't read what I said ??

If I wanted to say the little ol Coleman RamX 15' is a better canoe than an aluminum canoe ... that's what I would have said .

I did not say that did I ??

The aluminum canoe has "some" favorable advantages over the Coleman RamX . In the same breath I will say that the little Coleman RamX 15' has advantages over the aluminum canoe also .

As for your concern that I may not know diddly squat about either of them ... I know all that needs be known about both of them , that from experience and plain common sense . So what do think about that jackl , satisfy your reading into words that aren't there , written or spoken .

Some people hear another say something that was spoken clearly , directly and understandable ... and they have the ability to believe the person meant something other than what was said . Are you one of those type people with that ability jackl ??

The attitude you just directed towards me in your post was arrogant . If you had wished to know whether or not I believe a Coleman RamX is a better canoe than an aluminum ... you could of simply asked as opposed to acting like a knucklehead . And just because you opened your arrogance with the word "IF" , does not excuse you in my book . I think you have "assumed too much" .

gbg , you ask if the Oldtown seats

– Last Updated: Sep-16-10 11:05 PM EST –

..... were adjustable . I said no they are not adjustable . They are fixed position .

They can be repositioned in the same way as the wood frame seats in expensive canoes can be . They can be lowered . They can be tilted , etc. , they can be moved forward and rearward , I call that repositioning because it requires changes . They can be swapped out for a different style seat as well if one desires . They are not adjustable as in sliding or IQ type as I previously mentioned .

The Oldtown seats are fastened to gunnels by through bolt , pretty much the same way the wood frame seats in canoes costing thousands more are .

What are you talking about floor mounted box style seats for ?? You asked about the Oldtown seats I mentioned as if you don't know what they are , how they attach , what can be done with them .

You understand what there is to understand about the Oldtown seats , don't you ??

Again you act like a knucklehead making degtading accusations about me , gbg (knock , knock , knock) . I'm not stretching anything in my interpretation as you have claimed ... I spoke about Oldtown seats , made some seat observations and wrote some about those observations in a post on this thread ... simple as that , no stretch , no dramatization , no fiction , no mind game , no illusion , no animation , no "hidden" meanings .

you act like a knucklehead also pp …
… pilot would not think the floataion in the seats would make the canoe float higher (unless swamped) .



Did you say the bouyant core in the Oldtown wants to rise to the surface ??



Hmmm , the bouyant core wants to rise to the surface . Does that help the hull float higher in the water with an X payload ?? Does that mean the hull material itself has bouyancy beyond the displacement factor ??


I’ve offered about as many things …
… as I am aware of , thoughts for consideration , as to why the OP might want to consider other canoes , other palstic constructions (OT’s 3 Layer Superlinear Polyethylene , Royalex , or other similar canoe constructions) , other than either the Aluminum or Pelican .



I think the OP has a right to hear the comparison things I’ve mentioned and the explanations of them .



nosirrahg , if you purchase the aluminum canoe , I believe you will enjoy it very much and wish you good journeys …


I am sorry to say I read the whole thrd.
Pilot, you don’t know WTF you are talking about. From what a good paddling canoe is, all the way to how buoyancy works. For you, I think it is STFU and learn before you pipe up. Your facts aren’t facts, your opinions are puerile.



I agree with the idea it doesn’t sound like you have enough experience to gauge what you are talking about. It really sounds like you are arguing these points to defend your own decisions rather than offer seasoned advice. Not long ago you were here asking questions as an unabashed novice, now you’re purporting to know what’s what. I think you don’t know enough to know what you don’t know.

Your words -Not mine !
"it’s just not going to be as tough as the old Grummans are , but in many ways I feel it’s the superior canoe by a large margin ".



Jack L


good enough jackl ,
… in “many” ways I feel the little Coleman RamX 15’ is a superior canoe by a large margin .



And in many ways it is … most of which have already been mentioned here by myself . If you’d like to discuss my reasoning behind that statement , we could do that .



The little Coleman is good paddler with a light load . It’s single layer plastic hull is tough and I have yet to see one all twisted up , to the contrary they have all been straight and undeformed . It is a single piece “plastic” hull with tubular reinforcement . It has a number of the advantages of plastic over aluminum construction (not all , but a number of them) .



Just checked the reviews here on p.net about the Coleman RamX 15 , about 43 of them rate it an 8-10 . The be fair , about 8 of them rate it a 4 or less .


you’ve said “nothing” kanoo …

– Last Updated: Sep-17-10 2:30 PM EST –

....... all you've done is make degrading broad sweep statements towards me , and have offered nothing to support them other than your arrogance . The words you've choosen to address me are fighting words (STFU) , instigating pushing words ... in person I'd insist you back them up ...

I first paddled a canoe in 71 ... since that time have spent many miles and hours paddling . I own 2 canoes (both Oldtowns , one 3 Layer Super Linear , the other Royalex) , and have paddled about 9-10 different ones , spending enough time in each to know enough about them . I've "never" asked questions here as you say "like an unabashed novice" ... I have asked a few questions about some things , but very very few , canoes are not a difficult thing to understand , they are simple things . Paddling a canoe is not a difficult thing , it's a simple thing (heavy WW and freestyle are not included in that statement because they are advanced disaplines , niether of which skills have I aquired) .

You made the statement "your facts aren't facts " ... another broadsweep useless comment . What "facts" in particular do you speak of , and what factual opposition do you have to offer in support of your opinion ... I will support my words with further explanation than has already been offered if you want .

I came on p.net in 06 , and know the difference between a knucklehead like yourself and someone who has something useful to add to a conversation . I could make degrading broadsweep statements about you as well , but that would offer nothing of worth and then I would be acting like a knucklehead .

For your information I do know what a good paddling canoe is . And here is a clue , a good paddling canoe has to be well suited to what it is being used for , the enviroment it is in , and not all use enviroments are the same . What has favorable advantages in one enviroment can be the worst possible canoe in another .

High end super light expensive canoes can easily fall into worst possible canoe choice .

Most reviewers over-rate their boats.
As to hull materials, one way to tell is to see what people are using for deep Arctic expeditions. Another is to see what the really serious whitewater creekers are using. Neither Ram-X nor Old Town-like poly sandwiches are showing up in those environments.



They’re good materials for inexpensive boats, made for people who don’t know how to do repairs and don’t want to know.



What was it you were saying about the handling of the Coleman 15? Do you think you would stand by that statement if you paddled the full Esquif line? I think you would end up chucking spears at that Coleman.

The answer to both questions is “no”

– Last Updated: Sep-17-10 10:42 AM EST –

What plaidpaddler says makes perfect sense if you understand what he's talking about, and you don't. In the end, bouyancy is affected by the "effective density" of the floating object, a term I'll use to substitute for the genuine explanations already provided. Density is mass/volume, and you still don't understand the huge difference between the mass/volume of an enclosed hull that is "keeping the water out" and mass/volume of a swamped hull that is fully immersed. The mass in both instances is exactly the same, but difference in total volume between the two situations is many orders of magnitude. End of story.

Okay, I misunderstood that part
All of the “contoured” plastic seats I’ve seen in Old Towns have been box-like structures going all the way to the floor, glued to the hull around the whole perimeter of the seat. I assumed that since you were talking about these seats as if there is a whole lot of floatation in there, and in that style, that’s true. I’ve seen plenty of Old Towns with that kind of seat construction, and I don’t like them. Anyway, none of this changes the fact that your interpretation is complete nonsense, that bouyant materials carried inside a sealed hull, whether they are seats or even the hull material itself, somehow make the hull float higher. It really appears that you are willing to ignore the laws of physics so that you can invent your own reasons to view all these cost-cutting features as something special that can’t be found on better boats.

g2d , I said …

– Last Updated: Sep-17-10 10:41 AM EST –

...... the little Coleman is a good paddler with a light load . It does Ok .

Do I think it has all the refined hydrodynamic characteristics of a highly efficient canoe design ... no not at all , but it is good little paddler .

I doubt I would chuck spears at the Coleman ... I'm sure I would see the merits of both the little Coleman and the Esquif high end fleet .