Terminology and correction blending (Preliminarily, I read the OP’s topic as asking about a repetitive touring stroke, not about a means of quick acceleration such as a cross forward stroke.)
Rob, people can call things whatever they want – and in canoeing they historically have done so – but what you’re calling the (thumb up) River J is called the goon stroke by Mason and a rudder-plus-pry or ruddering pry by others.
I think “J stroke” should be reserved for the (thumb down) stern pushaway correction. Most top WW racers in fact use this (thumb down) J stroke; most recreational WW paddlers probably use the (thumb up) stern rudder and pry. For a repetitive touring stroke in FW using a pry off the gunwales – which I read as the topic question – I like a thumb down pry correction.
Not counting the Foster-Wilson “inside circle forward stroke”, there 7 ways in Masonic terminology to correct a forward stroke. The discomfort and weakness of the thumbs down J correction can be assisted or supplanted by using one or more of the other corrections, especially in blends:
Bow draw correction at beginning of the stroke (C stroke)
Pitched blade angle during the pull phase (pitch stroke)
Thumbs up ruddering pry at end of stroke (goon stroke)
Thumbs down pushaway at end of stroke (J stroke)
Thumbs down gunwale pry at end of stroke (my stroke)
Loaded in-water return slice during recovery phase (Canadian stroke)
Loaded in-water return slice with palm roll during recovery phase (Indian stroke)
Perhaps like FE, my primary forward correction stroke is a blend of these different stroke phase corrections – usually 1+6 on lakes or 1+7 on twisty streams, but also several of the other combinations just for changes of pace or aesthetics. It becomes completely unconscious and reflexive after many years.
J stroke is needed for stern tandem, but I’ve learned to dispense with it almost entirely for solo paddling. I’m getting tired of explaining how, so y’all are going to have to figure it out for yourselves.
One thing. Watch people J stroke and you’ll see most of them are dragging the paddle just as much as they would do with the “goon” or rudder stroke. Shorten your stroke, do your J without trailing your paddle back behind you.
nope not needed most long distance travellers do not use a pure J at all but a Northwoods or Canadian…both rely on a pitch of the blade front edge downward during a slicing recovery.
And the fastest stroke for the sternsman is the hit and switch in tandem with the bow…Bow sets the cadence but its often too fast to allow the stern to do the J…Either the bow slows down and the stern does the J or both do hit and switch…
And like the kayak forward stroke, that is not a stroke easy to do well.
more of a quick "pop" when wind is a real factor...once done, getting the paddle back in the air and then into the water again...cleanly can be a momentum saver in heavy wind. I know prized expensive paddle owners are now cringing(LOL) but I enjoy paddling on crystal clear, windy days...especially in the extreme heat of summer, where up here the cooling wind on an 80+deg day, on the water is the place to be...and anyday paddling up here beats any day back in my cubicle, or waiting for system problems calls while at home.
My strokes are somewhat short anyways so I'm pretty aware of where the blade is and what it's doing. Think it's more of a windy environment stroke as the speed of it can far surpass anything where you either use more arm/muscle movement but can be useful in conjunction with an offside stroke or two now & then....it's just one of those variations on a stroke that's good to have in your arsenal for when you need it I think....
$.01
Either Like what was said, you may, but no point in doing it continually. Sometimes, when fighting wind, it is better to switch sides than have to do hard J strokes. Underway, hard J strokes are not usually necessary. Canadian stroke is a bit more comfortable for me.
If you are having trouble, I would suggest to slow down, and have your partner slow down, both the cadence and effort, until you get smooth and confident. Under maximum sprinting power, it can be difficult to do a J stroke
I agree sit and switch is more efficient, assuming a boat that tracks OK.
Either Like what was said, you may, but no point in doing it continually. Sometimes, when fighting wind, it is better to switch sides than have to do hard J strokes. Underway, hard J strokes are not usually necessary. Canadian stroke is a bit more comfortable for me.
If you are having trouble, I would suggest to slow down, and have your partner slow down, both the cadence and effort, until you get smooth and confident. The old “slow is smooth and smooth is fast”. Under maximum sprinting power, it can be difficult to do a J stroke at all, given the very short time for correction.
I agree sit and switch is more efficient, assuming a boat that tracks OK. Having said that, I think everyone should learn both ways to keep a course.
Blended Strokes Yep, I believe that blended strokes is part of the beauty of it all. I rather enjoy the feeling of reacting to the effects of various fickle combinations of wind or turbulence or obstacles, and have the stroke just sort of automatically become something different at various moments to get the job done.
Well said… …shorten your stroke and do your “J” earlier…depending on the boat it may even be slightly before your hip when kneeling.
I often tell new students it truly is a “feel” thing and simply spending more time paddling–using basically sound techniques that you’re learning in class–will allow you to paddle in a straight line. Some don’t believe it.
You dont have to assume a hard tracker With practice I am having a blast in my Colden Dragonfly with my Zav bent. The DragonFly has symmetrical rocker two inches rear and forward.
Works in my Nakoma too…two and a half inches rocker each end…
Just pay attention to the symmetry of the bow wave and if the bow gets a little off back off the power which reduced the amplitude of the wave pinning your bow. Then you can easily correct.
thanks for all the responses I am indeed talking about the “thumb down” flatwater j-stroke, not the “thumb up” whitewater “stern pry”. I probably should have said lever off the gunwale instead of pry to reduce confusion.
I paddle a Esquif Avalon, mainly solo from the bow seat facing stern. Often with my kids, but they don’t help a whole lot. Although the boat responds well to a c-stroke, I find it a little easier to hit n’ switch a few times to get up to speed and then j-stroke after that.
After years and years of just goon stroking and not knowing or caring about anything better, I’m trying to learn to paddle “the right way”. “Thumb down” felt weird at first, but is pretty intuitive now. I do tend to change my stroke mechanics depending on the wind and current or my fatigue level. But in general, I’ve found a nice strong torso-driven pull and a quick lever off the gunwale, leaving my lower shaft grip pretty loose, works best for me. It seems a little inelegant, so that’s why I threw out the question for expert opinion. And I’ve also seen the j-stroke demonstrated different ways in various books and You-Tube videos. I’m glad to hear that Becky Mason hits her gunwale too; that makes me feel better about my technique.
I would sure love to learn how to do a slicing in-water recovery ala Canadian and Indian-style. Looks so cool. But its a little beyond me at this point. I hear its easier with an ottertail paddle.
River J The term River J came from my ORCA whitewater courses. As you said, labels are just that and anyone can make one up. I certainly make up enough labels, but for once this one came from an ‘official’ source - albeit a few decades after Mason used the label Goon Stroke.
The C stroke's effectiveness will diminish as your paddling station moves further astern. The bow draw component obviously can't work unless you can reach into the on-side bow quadrant of the canoe.
To explain the return slice correction of the Canadian and Indian strokes, mentally paint a big "P" on one face of your paddle to denote the power face.
During the pull phase of a forward stroke the P is facing astern, and the stern begins to slide toward the on-side, causing the bow to turn to the off-side. Your correction is intended to move the stern, and hence the bow, back in the other directions. You can induce this course correction force at the end of your forward stroke in three general ways.
Each of the three ways begins with the thumb down rotation of the grip hand thumb, which turns the P face away from the canoe. The next action is doing one of three things with the paddle to put force onto the P face, which in reaction will apply a "correcting" force on the stern.
1. Gunwale Pry. Lever the paddle with a quick pop off the gunwale just behind your hip with a pull of your GRIP ARM. This is the quickest and most abrupt way to correct in the stern, and without wasting time on an extended rudder or a dragging paddle.
2. J Stroke. Without touching the gunwale, push the P face laterally further away from the stern with your SHAFT ARM. This outward push movement of your shaft forearm, which has nothing necessarily to do with how tight you are holding the shaft, is the movement that can feel very awkward, straining and tiring.
-- Note on the paddle return after 1 or 2: You return the blade after the correction force via the air or via a neutral slice through the water up to the bow to to begin the next stroke. By "neutral" in-water return, I mean a slice return that puts no pressure on the P face or back face during the slice.
3. Canadian Stroke. Begin as a J stroke, except don't do the lateral pushaway part. Instead, just slice the paddle toward the bow in the water, with the P face away from the canoe, and LIFT UP on the paddle as it is slicing forward. This slicing lift will put force ("load") on the P face and cause the stern to correct. Hence, the Canadian stroke corrects the course during the return itself -- giving two benefits for one efficient paddle move.
This lifting in-water return slice is easier on the shaft forearm than the J's lateral pushaway, and feels a lot more elegant. You don't have to lift very hard, and the lifting slice only has to last for about 15"-18" of forward motion to accomplish the correction. (You can vary the length by the amount of your lifting force.) Once you feel the correction is accomplished, you can pop the blade out of the water, which feels and sounds neat, and finish the return to the bow through the air. Alternatively, once the correction is complete, you can stop the lifting force and continue the return with a neutral in-water slice.
Once you have mastered the Canadian stroke's lifting ("loaded") slice return, you can then try what I believe is properly termed the Indian stroke. To do this, you do a 180 degree palm roll before beginning the loaded return slice. This has the same stern correction dynamic, but orients the P face so it is facing the canoe. This puts your grip hand and wrist in a more convenient orientation to begin the next forward stroke when you finish the in-water slice return.
The way I interpret your description of the Indian stroke is to rotate the paddle 180 degrees in the opposite direction as what is actually the case. Whether that's what you intended to say, I don't know. Here's how I would describe it.
Apply a standard power stroke, and at the point where the power face turns outward and pushes slightly outward with a J-stroke, the Indian stroke acts very much the same, so the power face actually turns to face AWAY from the boat. Thus, if paddling on the right side of the boat, the paddle shaft begins to rotate counter-clockwise as the correction phase of the stroke begins (that is, it's counter-clockwise as viewed from above). Immediately after the portion of the recovery that is similar to that of a J-stroke, the slicing underwater recovery begins, and correction can be applied during any or all of this recovery phase (the palm roll is needed to rotate the shaft this much). At the forward reach of the underwater recovery, the the paddle shaft begins to rotate a little more, in the same direction as before, initiating what is much like the beginning of a C-stroke (no palm roll needed at this point), and from there, the rotation continues to complete a full 180-degree-rotation cycle just as the next power stroke begins.
I don't think you actually intended to describe the rotation as turning the power face toward the boat during recovery, as that would require the same kind of action at the end of the power stroke as with the goon stroke (wasted energy on two-way cyclic motion instead of progressively curving motion), and the transition from slicing recovery to power stroke would be awkward for the same reason, IF a 180-degree turn were applied (if the power face were the same on successive strokes, turning the power face toward the boat would be best, but that wouldn't be an Indian stroke).
Just to make sure I'm not doing this wrong and spouting stupid info, I consulted Bill Mason's "Path of the Paddle". Yep, I've been doing it correctly.
Been away from the web for a week and just found this thread. Cannot help myself…must…comment…
A “J” stroke is a “J” stroke. Thumb down.
A Goon Stroke is not a backwards “J” stroke nor an “alternative J stroke” nor a “upside down J stroke”. It is a gunwale pry. Useful in the proper conditions. Ugly in all but a few.
J stroke, letting the paddle rotate I know people say not to twist the wrist on the lower hand; let it rotate freely. But how many actually do this? I kind of thought I did, until I really thought about it this weekend.
Turns out that I don’t let the paddle shaft rotate freely. I rotate my wrist. I tried letting it rotate. But it seemed less efficient. It introduced unnecessary friction.
How many here actually let the paddle rotate in their lower hand?
Yes, I mispoke on the Indian stroke The second half of my second to last sentence was incorrect about the orientation of the P face.
The palm roll at the beginning of the in-water return does not affect the orientation of the P face, which stays pointed away from the canoe. The palm roll just changes by 180 degrees the orientation of the top hand on the grip, which my last sentence was supposed to make clear. This allows your grip to be ready for the next forward stroke. Otherwise, you would have to do a palm roll – or paddle blade twist – at the beginning at the next forward stroke.
The Mason video linked by FE is the best free video I know for showing his four canonical forward correction strokes. He specifically mentions prying off the gunwale for extra power during his discussion of the J stroke and also the Canadian stroke.
The one important missing ingredient in this video is that Mason doesn’t specifically list the C stroke as a forward correction stroke, probably because he always paddled a tandem canoe and not a short modern solo. However, he does go on to demonstrate a bow draw component of a forward stroke when discussing the Indian and draw strokes.
because I do palm rolls and then an inwater recovery.
Letting the shaft hand be loose is a big help to aid students to learn their first FreesStyle move ..an axle . Its preceded by a slicing inwater recovery.
My students all learn it..Whether they use it day to day is up to them but most seem to when they return for more classes.
When I dont want the friction loss of an inwater recovery I go to hit and switch.
Sorry that this appeared in the wrong place..it was a response to Brian
