Kayak Wholesale Prices.

Mike do you have any retail experience?

– Last Updated: May-27-12 11:56 PM EST –

Because after reading your post it sounds like you want to operate a business and have no competition. Do you pay sticker price for your car, the asking price for your home and always go with the highest bid as heaven forbid you raise a business persons blood pressure by trying to save some money.
As far as waiting days for an internet order. Where have you been the last decade? Do you think internet sales have grown because of orders filled incorrectly and lousy service?
The customer has the right to spend their money where they want and if you don't see it that way I am sorry for you because this is the reality of a free market.


Got you beat by two years.
But I haven’t been strongly impressed with how member participation and control influences the business. Still, I’m loyal and look to REI first for most outdoor needs.

really…
How can you compare cars and houses to retail kayaks? That is flawed from the beginning. House prices don’t have a fixed cost and the “price” is always linked to what someone will pay for it. Sometimes people pay more than the asking price. Cars are also different do to the money making avenues with service and finance kickbacks. The issue isn’t competition. It’s ignorance to the situation. If you are only interested in best price, by all means buy online. But you can never complain about local business disappearing, lost tax revenue, the lack of product knowledge, etc.



Ryan L.

Same question to you…

– Last Updated: May-28-12 9:52 AM EST –

Mr/Ms Jaws,

You obviously have nothing to do with the financial side of "your" business either or you would not be making such comments. Just what do you do for a living or do you still live with your mommy?

Retail wise, there is a definite gray area, price wise, between gouging someone and making sufficient profit to cover expenses to keep your doors open. That fine line is constantly violated by two people: those who cut prices ridiculously low and cannot cover their own expenses and the online retailers who have no storefronts or overhead. Both, in their own ways are cheapening the reputation of their products as well as pilfering business from their legitimate local shops all over the USA who contribute to the local economy as well as create jobs.

Funny thing...whenever there is a warranty or repair issue the super low price shop is already bankrupt and locked out of his store and the online vendor is nowhere in sight. He will probably refer you to the nearest authorized dealer. Sadly, many of the major manufacturers bean counters enjoy high wholesale volume from these outlaw dealers but conveniently "look the other way" and ignore how it affects their "legitimate" dealer networks. I have seen it backfire several times and the major manufacturer is stuck with a big $$$$ loss since the boats are sold and gone but the bill was never paid. Sadly enough, this is true justice for them for "overlooking" dealer covenants that they created (and made the dealer sign) regarding consistent pricing, servicing, and territory protection.

The local reputable dealer ends up spending his valuable time and expense cleaning up the messes of others. Even though we know that the person with a problem bypassed our shop to save a few dollars, we are always courteous and work hard to solve the issue. In almost every case, the customer is pleasantly surprised at our courteous attitude and is pleasantly surprised that we have been willing to assist and ends up a loyal customer.

If your local shop is smart, they will always give you a fair and reasonable price and will be there for you with priceless value added service and expert advice. You will never know how much you need them until they are gone.

Well if what you say is true…
then customers will realize what local shops have to offer, pay the higher price and local shops will prosper while internet sales fall.

But if people continue to shop according to price and local shops fail to meet this challenge then they will continue to close.

I could go on Mike but I just saw a mint P&H Quest on Craigslist for $1300 and don’t want to miss out on an awesome deal. Will the seller give me value added service and expert advice? Who freaken cares it’s only $1300!








Huh?
Fox deliberately spews more misinformation and distortion in one hour on any given day than all the programs on NPR might broadcast accidentally in 10 years. And when NPR discovers they’ve presented misinformation they generally correct it publicly.



A listener supported news reporting source produced by professional journalists , versus a ratings-pandering commercially owned “infotainment” source produced by hacks and shrill gadflies and hypocrites. Yup, real parallels there…

Lets see…
a radio station supported by tax dollars given to them by liberal democrats. Yep, no bias going on there!

Still waiting…
You still did not answer my question. How does YOUR business respond to people wanting heavy discounts at or below your cost? I feel that you don’t have the cajones to give an honest answer.

what do you mean, “will”?
Where do you think the original owner of that p&h boat bought it? Here’s a hint: not @ Dick’s or Wal-Mart. They would never entertain the slim overhead.

Typing on a computer made in China?
In the end, the business that provides the customers with what those customers want will be the business that wins. If that business is on the internet then so be it.



Or are you typing on a computer made in the USA? You and everyone else shops by price more than by service and it’s only the scale of it that differs between anyone here.



I say that NO ONE here shops someplace because of the service they get unless the prices are the same and they get the service for free. Sure, you might say that you paid $100.00 more for a $1500.00 kayak to get some service but that’s not even 10% and is just small change in the big picture of the purchase.



And who says that internet businesses are evil? It’s the wave of the future and it will not be the only way that we, as a society, destroy jobs and damage our own economy. We have wars. We have ethnic poverty because of racism. We have outsourcing. We ultimately always pick the lowest price alternative or we would have the worlds best auto manufacturing and we would be making flat panel computer displays here in this country instead of overseas.



The high-and-mighty stance that we need to support local shops is great and I applaud those that actually buy American goods whenever possible even at a higher price. Unfortunately, the system does’t really work that way for anyone. The only reason someone might buy locally for a higher price is not for service, it’s for more immediate satisfaction because they WANT IT NOW!



I actually pay more to local shops when I can but sometimes, the service and immediate satisfaction is just not worth the price. Plus, I actually trust internet companies to not scam me. Local businesses are great but there might actually be too much human intervention going on there.



Dave


you’re entitled to your opinion

– Last Updated: May-29-12 12:00 PM EST –

Wrong as it is.

I shop local/independent shops partly because they're the only ones who carry what I want. The physical item, not a picture of the item on my monitor. If that's not service - tell me what it is.

What do you suppose would happen to the retail economy if everyone shopped over the internet all the time to avoid taxes?

Comparing the kayak market to computer keyboards is such an absurd comparison that I don't know where to begin.

We kissed the customers ass even
when we knew they were wrong and at times we did jobs at a loss just to show the customer what we could do for them. We could have pointed out how they installed the product wrong and would not cover the cost to fix the problem but then we would be losing customers we could not afford to lose. I worked in a world where low bid was king and if you could not supply a superior product at or below your competition then you were on your way out. It’s the way of the world get use to it.

So again I will say that if you provide what the customer demands, a quality product at or below the competition then you will be around for years to come but if you don’t I hope you have a back up plan!


really…
You are doing the same thing jaws is. I understand how this works. Im not even suggesting one should pay more and buy local. The only new boat I own was purchased via internet from qcc. I don’t have local shops where I live. The issue here is the lack of understanding what goes into a small retail business. People are trying to compare small local to large local to internet business. You simply cannot do this. All I ask is you look past the purely capitalist ideal and see that sometimes the right thing to do is to stop worrying about 5% and make decisions that might help you in the future. Like when you really need an opinion or need to lay hands on something before buyin, orif you simply don’t care, then just don’t complain when all local stores are gone. At the very least, don’t make a fool out of yourself and get mad when the local shop is selling you stuff at a 5% margin.



Ryan L.

keyboards, cars, toilet paper, kayaks
it’s all the same!

???
It’s not like NPR ran out of money when Bush was in charge with a Republican congress,check your facts.



You want to speak of bias out of both sides of your mouth. Folks on Fox have been caught in lie after lie after lie! I realize that the prevailing attitude on the right (from which point you clearly view the world) regarding empirical evidence is that they are “biased” but last I checked the word “Fact” refers to objective evidence, not opinion.



For the record, I’m biased, I’m on the left. I’m pro union, civil rights for EVERYONE, universal healthcare as well. I’m also well armed and no pacifist. In fact, check your history. Many revolutions have been won by the left…more then those on the right (to stick with the left/right theme).

NPR is bought and paid for just like
FOX. To think otherwise is delusional.

tire kicking
I like to do it, but I’m clear that I’m just looking and won’t be buying. Usually the store staff will just leave me alone, but if the store is quiet sometimes they’re happy to talk about their gear. I do think the honesty is appreciated.




only one way
You get a used p&h. Someone has to buy it new.



Ryan L.

low price does not equal value
I’ve worked, at management level, in a lot of companies and I will roundly dispute your contention that you HAVE to price cut to maintain your customer base. Nothing could be more wrong. Research into humans buying habits and behavior continually show that people more highly value things that cost them more. When you cheapen your product it becomes a downward spiral you can never win. As your profits decline, you have to cut costs and your ability to service your customers eventually drops to a point where they get fed up and leave you, either for somebody cheaper (who will also fold soon due to unsustainably low margins) or to someone who is more costly but gives better service and/or fewer hassles.



In every company where I have been given the authority to quote jobs and to control prices, the first thing I have done when taking over my division is to set our prices where they should be – which almost always has meant raising them. Yet I have never failed to INCREASE our volume of business as well as the margins we made on it. People want “value” which is not just low price. Once you demonstrate to them that it is more cost-effective in all ways for them to pay the fair price for a combination of goods and services, while establishing a rapport with them that takes into account their individual needs, you can get the price you need to stay in business. And my business is construction and maintenance, one of the most cut-throat, price constrained lines of work you can imagine.



Whether I was in inside electrical sales or overseeing crews on a maintenance contract at a major manufacturer’s facility, I never let a customer walk away from a sale because he/she told me they found my “product” cheaper. I would always initiate a conversation about our quote versus the competitor’s. I would say, “setting aside price for a moment, what are your critical expectations for what you are buying here?” Usually it was things like on-time delivery, quality of installation, lack of surprises or hassles and (this one is important) making themselves look good to their own bosses. In most cases I could demonstrate that my crews (or my factory) had a better record on all those counts including safety and level of expertise. In fact in some cases I would guarantee such things as specific delivery times, offer discounts for early invoice payment and even an added cash refund if we failed to make any commitments on milestones or technical issues.



I took over one crew on a major manufacturer’s international HQ and production site – there were 6 other contractors on site with whom we had to compete for maintenance and construction jobs in the plant. Though we had the lowest rate per hour of any of them we struggled to keep a share of the work. The previous superintendent had kept desperately lowering the rates, hoping to get more work. After studying the on-site politics and talking a lot to the client’s various area engineers who issued the purchase orders, I discovered that though they may have said “give me your best price” in all the requests for work quotes, their 3 primary concerns for getting their jobs done were timely completion, perfect safety and that the work looked nice (the plant had frequent tours of stakeholders.) So I raised our prices across the board to be higher than the other 6 firms. But I didn’t just hand the engineers a new price list. I gave them a carefully written preamble that detailed how we had maintained such a perfect safety record on site that we were only one of two permitted to work in a Classified “exoplosive” zone of the plant, and we had been tapped to train the second contractor and to consult with the plant managers in devising their overall safety procedures. I listed the major jobs we had done over the previous 5 years pointing out that we had met or improved upon their production milestones in every case. I also demonstrated that I had the most skilled and well-trained crew, with the highest journeyman to apprentice ratio, that we had spent over $20,000 training those guys in the type of programmable controllers the plant used and we were not only maintaining an on-site and well-stocked service trailer but had added a radio system with repeater so the engineers could have who and what they needed wherever they needed in the vast plant within minutes. I promised to set up one personal point-man technician for each engineer. Then, once I had demonstrated why we were the “quality” go-to guys on site, I attached the new pricing and rates list.



Not only did nobody drop us, they actually more than doubled their orders to us over the next 3 years, even using us as the standard by which they expected other contractors to perform. Corporate policy required them to keep the other contractors in play, but the engineers often did so grudgingly and only when we were too busy to accommodate them (though some would postpone their projects until I had someone available.)



I also NEVER told a client that a tough project they presented to me was “no sweat, sure we can handle that, no problem…” That sort of bluffing “confidence” gets you nowhere fast. If you say something is easy and you stumble, you’re a jerk in their eyes. If you pull it off, you get no accolades, just a spoiled customer who thinks they can snap their fingers and get whatever they want each time. If the job was tough (even only mildly so) I would state so, with good explanation as to why it would be a challenge: “your timeline for this is way too short”, “you don’t have your full design decisions made yet”, “you are pushing it to expect to get that done over the winter”, etc. But after laying all this out, I would then state that if they work closely with me, we can try our darnedest to get it done.



This serves several purposes. First it puts doubt in their minds regarding our competitors who have all said “oh sure, we can do that, no problem”. The client is left wondering: do those other bidders really understand the complexity of this job? Are they just blowing smoke? Am I going to get shafted halfway through the job and look bad with my bosses? Many times these doubts were all that were needed for me to get the job, even at a slightly higher price (I would usually explain that I had contingencies built into the job and if we things went well and we didn’t need them, he would get a credit at the end.) The second purpose is that alerting the client to the fact that the job is a challenge, not a cake walk, puts them in a better frame of mind to work with you to mitigate problems. The third purpose is that if problems arise or the schedule slips, then they knew to expect it and have to acknowledge you warned them. They will always be more willing to work with you to solve issues that arise if you did NOT tell them “no problem” at the outset.



The fourth and final purpose to this strategy is when you DO make that deadline and everything turns out well and you can credit them the contingencies you didn’t have to use, you are a big hero. And you now have a grateful client who feels like they can rely on you to be upfront. Your performance even enables them to justify a higher cost to their own bosses; “this was a tough job but they got it done – the extra cost was worth it”.



These strategies work – perceived value, personal service, honest communication and quality trump discount pricing if you know how to market it to your customers.

Inside baseball
I like these sort of “inside baseball” type threads, mainly because I know next to nothing about the kayak/paddling industry. But I’m hearing the same sorts of things I’ve gleaned about the bicycle industry and the same sorts of hand wringing about the “local shops”. Now don’t get me wrong - I love Mom & Pop’s and shop them where and when I can. But Mom & Pop gotta realize that it ain’t 1965 anymore; its a global economy now. They have to create some value that customers can’t get from Supermart or Discountstuff.com, whether that means service, selection, quality of merchandise, classes, community involvement, whatever. It seems to me that the shops that do that survive and prosper. There is still a market for quality goods that can’t and won’t be satisfied by the bargain outlets.



As for REI, I don’t know if deep down its really an evil big box store in disguise or really a little Seattle-based co-op “done good”, but I do know that I can usually find what I need and get good value for my money. It sells entry-to-mid level “good stuff” and for most (but not all) of my outdoor equipment needs, that’s good enough. I’ve also been pleasantly surprised at how active REI is here in Northern Virginia. I found out REI funded the construction of my favorite mountain bike trail, sponsors several biking and paddling programs I’ve taken part in, and supports my son’s Boy Scout council. Maybe its not like that everywhere. But that’s my experience, and I’m proud to be a member.