Valley's Discontinuing A Lot of Boats

They really not similar at all
I’ve paddled both and they’re completely different boats.

Just one?
QCC …never met one live and in person, so I can’t comment on build. Design is, as you say, a matter of opinion … and personal taste.



OK let’s stipulate the QCC is, as you say, the equal in build quality to any of the aforementioned Brit boats. Is this only because build quality of such Brit boats as NDK, Valley, P&H, etc have declined, so much so that it now allows QCC to equal them? That’s what sparked this sub-thread.



Or have these Brit boats maintained their quality, and others like QCC are rising and can now match them?



I don’t believe anywhere in this entire thread does anyone say Brit boats are unmatched in build quality. But I don’t think even you can say they have not earned a reputation of being among the best in that regard, and have long been the gold standard by which many if not most people measure built. You are doing so when holding QCC up to that level.



The comment I responded to was that Brit boat build and design is in decline. Given all the great builders and designs, I don’t see that. That’s not saying there are not other great boats out there, or that other places are not rising when it comes to design and quality of build.



So QCC may be equal to the build of my Valley, but I can’t imagine any boat could be better built. And not because Valley is a Brit boat, but because from a build quality perspective, I can’t imagine what would constitute better. So if QCC can build to that level, the same could be said of QCC.

To confuse matters further…
What of Brit boat makers like Tiderace, who design their boats in the UK, but then have them made in those Thai factories you admire so greatly?



Seems like at least one Brit boat maker then has “probably the best quality boats ever in terms of build”, to quote you.


You asked for an example
And I gave you one. QCC has always been known for quality construction. And as you say, you know nothing about them.

A "Brit made boat"
is not a Thai made boat. The issue was originally posed as quality of British built boats.

of course…
…but that wasn’t the angle I was getting at.



In this era of globalization and outsourcing, does it really matter if the Brits are master craftsmen, or second-rate?



In terms of local jobs in the UK, yes, it certainly does matter, but from the point-of-view of their customers (us), do we really care if the boats are built in the UK or Thailand, so long as the design is awesome and the quality of the build is high?



Just seems like the whole ‘don’t buy a British kayak, the quality is crap’ argument loses some of its teeth when you have British companies like Tiderace out there, globalizing freely, and not to the lowest common denominator either, but rather to exacting standards, by all accounts.



Now, if ppl want to quibble over whether NDK is still turning out crappy, quality-inconsistent boats, that’s fine, they’ve kind of earned the xtra scrutiny via past sins. =]


Agreed…
“But there is serious garbage coming out of Confluence these days, leaky hatches, blown bulkheads.”



Two Tempests, one Zephyr and an Alchemy all arrived with issues that required attention before the boats could be considered sea worthy. My Nordkapp puts 'em to shame with respect to the quality of the components as well as the attention paid to proper assembly.



Many manufacturers have had a spell of troubles here and there. Sweeping generalisations claiming superiority of one country of manufacture over another seldom reflect reality and are certainly subject to change.

QCC vs all Brit boats!

– Last Updated: Sep-04-12 2:21 PM EST –

"QCC ...never met one live and in person, so I can't comment on build. Design is, as you say, a matter of opinion ... and personal taste."

I had. Not impressed. Give me a Valley any day!

Granted, I'm too small for it (smallest version of QCC). But isn't that the point? (N.A. boats are build for "north American" which are all over-weight!) ;-)


"But there are a wide variety of boats not made in Great Britain and/or not Brit designed that are as good if not better in design and construction quality. You need a wider experience."

You need more than "one example" to support the claim of "wide variety of boats"!

Dude you must be on small midget !
http://www.qcckayaks.com/model.asp?model=q10x

design
The QCC is an engineering exercise. It may be a nice piece but it’s not very exciting.


it’s simple
The pintail was a porsche boxster



The aquanaut was a porsche…cayenne.

Wide Variety of Boats
I chose QCC because their designs are very different (like them or not, I do) and the build quality is high. Others would be Eddyline (American), Current Designs (founded by a Canadian even though they later added Brit designs), Boreal Design (Canadian), Epic Kayaks, Point 65N, or Qajaq (Italian). My point is that there are a wide variety of boats out there, a number of companies that build well, and lots of innovation. I see no reason to drink the Brit boat cool-aid.

American cool aid?

– Last Updated: Sep-04-12 9:08 PM EST –

"I chose QCC because their designs are very different (like them or not, I do) and the build quality is high. Others would be Eddyline (American), Current Designs (founded by a Canadian even though they later added Brit designs), Boreal Design (Canadian), Epic Kayaks, Point 65N, or Qajaq (Italian). My point is that there are a wide variety of boats out there, a number of companies that build well, and lots of innovation. I see no reason to drink the Brit boat cool-aid."

I happened to have tried several of those on your list and still ended up with a Brit boat. My experience had been:

1) The Brit boats had been around for a while, tried and true to say the least. A lot of the N.A. rough water boats are copies of Brit designs. But in their attempt to differentiate from the original, they make changes (aka "innovation"). Some of those changes works ok. Others not at all. Still, when one consider, "the best compliment is being copied", it says A LOT about the British coolaid. How many North American "innovation" models got copied widely? QCC copies abound?

2) As for construction quality, NDK seems to taint the "Brit boat" image. I heaven't heard much quality issues with Valley, which is the subject of this thread. But you may know something I don't?

So? Not seeing your point …
… Having never seen one live and in person, I’ll go along with your POV that QCC is as well made as a Valley or P&H, or any of the other top Brit boats … or are you saying QCC is better made? Or are you saying Brit boats are in decline?



Because that’s what the point was that started this side discussion. So I’ve kinda lost your point. sorry. No one is saying Brit boats are better than all others, or no other boat matches Valley, etc. Just that these premier classic boats are still among the best designed and built sea kayaks, and not the “end of an era”.



Perhaps you felt that was a slight to QCC? Or a snobbish attitude? Now you know that is not the intent, and never was.






hey now…
Midgets are cool. I’m not one, but I don’t have anything against 'em. And they’re always funny in every movie in they’re in. =]


I’m no engineer …
… Nor a craftsman in glass, kevlar - or plastic for that matter - boats.



But I have been around boats my whole life, literally, growing up on Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island. As did my father and grandfather. Always had boats, so I learned to appreciate them from a young age, listening to my father and grandfather discus boats. All kinds of boats.



Ever since I started playing with sea kayaks, checking out local shops for fun before I bought my first one a dozen years ago, every shop had multiple brands of boats … and it seemed that the Brit boats where always top shelf. You didn’t have to examine them hard to see why.



So to me NDK, Valley, P&H, these are the “gold standard”. When I decided to get back into this after a few years off (injury), I decided to get one of the best … bucket list kind of thing.



Now I know there are many fine non-Brit boats these days that can compete on design. And more than a few that can complete on built quality too. That’s a good thing.



But better? Looking at my Valley, as someone who has been around glass boats since I could walk, and who has been through at 5 kayaks before, I can’t see how any consumer grade, or volume produced boat, could be better made.



That’s not snobbery, or saying Valley is the best, etc. Just that these boats are as good as it gets, equaled by several non-brit boats as well.




What cool aid?
Those are all fine boats, and in the same class as far as design and build quality as Valley, NDK, P&H, etc. I’ve demo’d some of these, and like them a lot. But they are not better, as far as quality goes. Who has said that? I’d put them the same, and would be proud to own any of those boats.



Sometimes it seems that the QCC drivers have a chip on their shoulders, and leap to defend any perceived slight … even when none exists.



Given the cult like loyalty around QCC, I’m thinking these are fine boats. I’ve just never seen one, probably because I like sea kayaking, so all the boats I see look like mine. Now don’t get excited, that’s not a slight … I never looked at a WW boat either. You probably don’t see many Valley’s on rivers and lakes.

My Valley …
… Is a beautiful boat. Outstanding in every way.



What a difference compared to the several glass Wilderness Tempests I had, the last one being a Chinese made one. That one was a real mess, and not just leaks. The rough glass seams inside needed to be sanded down, bolts for the deck rigging missing or stripped. The glass work around the skeg box was crude and sloppy. To me that was very sad, because that is a good boat designed by a good guy. A real shame to see what it had become.

Regulations …
… I think have a lot to do with it. Some places have so many rules and codes that make working in glass or even plastic so expensive that corners end up getting cut. I think that is what hurt Wildy … plus moving a few times, which often means leaving skilled workers behind.



Many countries have history of craftsmanship in various industries. The Brits had\have a good history with sea kayak design, and quality workmanship. That seems to exist in other places too, like Canada for example. I think here in the US a lot of that industry has been over regulated to the point where not a lot is left, especially in small boats like kayaks, with small specialized markets.

is it regulation…
…or the fact that Chinese workers get paid pennies on the dollar compared to their US or UK counterparts?



My guess is it’s largely the latter. Composite boats are a bit labor-intensive, and Wildy/Conflluence wanted to save some money.



But I don’t think they factored in the magnitude of the quality hit they were going to take, and the resulting damage to their reputation.