hey now…
Midgets are cool. I’m not one, but I don’t have anything against 'em. And they’re always funny in every movie in they’re in. =]
I’m no engineer …
… Nor a craftsman in glass, kevlar - or plastic for that matter - boats.
But I have been around boats my whole life, literally, growing up on Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island. As did my father and grandfather. Always had boats, so I learned to appreciate them from a young age, listening to my father and grandfather discus boats. All kinds of boats.
Ever since I started playing with sea kayaks, checking out local shops for fun before I bought my first one a dozen years ago, every shop had multiple brands of boats … and it seemed that the Brit boats where always top shelf. You didn’t have to examine them hard to see why.
So to me NDK, Valley, P&H, these are the “gold standard”. When I decided to get back into this after a few years off (injury), I decided to get one of the best … bucket list kind of thing.
Now I know there are many fine non-Brit boats these days that can compete on design. And more than a few that can complete on built quality too. That’s a good thing.
But better? Looking at my Valley, as someone who has been around glass boats since I could walk, and who has been through at 5 kayaks before, I can’t see how any consumer grade, or volume produced boat, could be better made.
That’s not snobbery, or saying Valley is the best, etc. Just that these boats are as good as it gets, equaled by several non-brit boats as well.
What cool aid?
Those are all fine boats, and in the same class as far as design and build quality as Valley, NDK, P&H, etc. I’ve demo’d some of these, and like them a lot. But they are not better, as far as quality goes. Who has said that? I’d put them the same, and would be proud to own any of those boats.
Sometimes it seems that the QCC drivers have a chip on their shoulders, and leap to defend any perceived slight … even when none exists.
Given the cult like loyalty around QCC, I’m thinking these are fine boats. I’ve just never seen one, probably because I like sea kayaking, so all the boats I see look like mine. Now don’t get excited, that’s not a slight … I never looked at a WW boat either. You probably don’t see many Valley’s on rivers and lakes.
My Valley …
… Is a beautiful boat. Outstanding in every way.
What a difference compared to the several glass Wilderness Tempests I had, the last one being a Chinese made one. That one was a real mess, and not just leaks. The rough glass seams inside needed to be sanded down, bolts for the deck rigging missing or stripped. The glass work around the skeg box was crude and sloppy. To me that was very sad, because that is a good boat designed by a good guy. A real shame to see what it had become.
Regulations …
… I think have a lot to do with it. Some places have so many rules and codes that make working in glass or even plastic so expensive that corners end up getting cut. I think that is what hurt Wildy … plus moving a few times, which often means leaving skilled workers behind.
Many countries have history of craftsmanship in various industries. The Brits had\have a good history with sea kayak design, and quality workmanship. That seems to exist in other places too, like Canada for example. I think here in the US a lot of that industry has been over regulated to the point where not a lot is left, especially in small boats like kayaks, with small specialized markets.
is it regulation…
…or the fact that Chinese workers get paid pennies on the dollar compared to their US or UK counterparts?
My guess is it’s largely the latter. Composite boats are a bit labor-intensive, and Wildy/Conflluence wanted to save some money.
But I don’t think they factored in the magnitude of the quality hit they were going to take, and the resulting damage to their reputation.
Actually its the plastic
boats that are total crap and they have thrown their smaller dealerships under the bus. For the good of planet, Confluence needs to die!
Interprettion of "Gold Standard"
That was your phrase. What that means to me is that somehow British designed and built boats are the best and that other designers and builders strive to achieve that standard in both areas. My only point is that while British designed boats have certainly been enormously influential (and deservedly so) they are not in fact a gold standard. There are designs just as good and by some criteria clearly better. And when it comes to quality of build British craftspeople have been both excellent and and not so good. Again, not necessarily a gold standard. But more important, I think it is important to recognize other quality designs (which were not derived from Brit designs) and innovations in building quality boats in other places. For example, what Brit builder is producing innovative thermoformed kayaks like Eddyline? Just asking for balance, recognition of various contributions, and not distorting history based on personal preference and limited personal experience.
I’ve heard both, but more the composites
A salute to Valley Canoe
There are many design standards that we take for granted or expect in quality kayaks and the greater percentage of them came from Valley Canoe which was founded in 1970 by Frank Goodman who was the first to paddle the Cape of Good Horn.
- Fiberglass (glassed in) bulkheads. This is a great attention to detail and a commitment to a unionized structure.
- Recessed cockpit coaming. This was not done for rolling but because it was a better design to not raise the cockpit lip any higher than necessary. Another commitment to design detail and concern about reentering a kayak.
- Recessed deck fittings. To keep anything from interfering with a paddlers trying to reenter their boat, the fittings were recessed. This is not just design but a knowledge about advanced kayaking skills and reentries.
- Deck lines. Many kayaks during those early times only had bungees to carry things and a disregard for a paddler who might be in the water. BTW – the bungees were simple parallel lines (no criss cross) so chart reading would be easy.
- The Day Hatch. This mandated an additional bulkhead and allows a paddler to open it up at sea without jeopardizing the integrity of the internal bulkhead design kayak.
- Deck mounted pump. Although this is debatable or subject to personal preference, the advanced safety thinking and commitment were there. You could pump your boat out with the spray skirt on. You could not pump another boat out however, at that time in England, everyone had a Valley boat.
- Molded in seats. Many kayaks of that early era flopped in a piece of foam and gave the seat a haphazard priority. The molded in seat also caused the birth of the seat struts that act like hip bracing. In hanging a seat off the bottom, they actually created hip stops in the process.
- The Retractable Skeg. All manufactured fiberglass kayaks now have them.
- The Compass Recess.
- Last and far from least is the famous VCP hatch. Hatches that didn’t leak. Hatches that you could open and close easily and hatch covers that float and require no additional hardware. There were a few British kayaks that had hatches like the screw on cap on a jar of tomato sauce but Valley set the standard which in my opinion has been copied but never equaled.
Amen
NM
Valley does deserve a ton of credit…
…and it’s extremely hard to argue otherwise.
that’s complete rubbish
Regulations in this country are not contributing to the inconsistent QC at confluence. This is political grandstanding.
But I thought
D.H. did all that… 
Confluence boat manufacture
only manufacture of the composite boats for WS and Dagger (Tempest, Zephyr, a Dagger model or two) moved over to China a few years ago (for the 2009 iirc). At that time (Jan 2009) Confluence released a statement saying the move was for a better price point, although privately there were comments (here and other places) that the move was QC based as well.
The rotomoulded boats (Alchemies, Tsunamis, Pungos, etc, and plastic versions of Tempests and Zephyrs were all and are all made in North Carolina.
So as the discussion continues re workmanship keep in mind which models are made in which country.
Good guess
"I’m guessing it’s confusing enough to have multitude of manufacturers to choose from then to have several products to choose from after that."
Good guess.
Confused buyers are likely to go elsewhere.
wilderness glass
FWIW, I have never seen a pre- china made glass tempest but have seen an 09 and paddled 2 other 09’s and own a '10. I have found no flaws in any of those boats in the glasswork. That is not to compare it to anything else, just saying that these 4 boats came out good, and I have only seen 4 of them.
Maalstrom and Boreal Design
Sadly Boreal Design went bankrupt this year.
Maalstrom makes awesome kayaks (for skilled kayakers in dynamic water), even so so far they only have 2 models.
The quality of Seaward Kayaks is exceptional, some of there designs are great, if not as playful and responsive as some brit designs.
Atlantis Kayaks makes great quality kayaks too - they tend to feel more stable than typical brit kayaks.
Delta makes great thermoform kayaks for comfortable cruising.
Nimbus and Impex are a couple others.
All of the above are canadian (not sure about Impex).
Epic has some great designs - not built to be as durable as most brit boats, but lighter.
Continuation of an era…
Brit boats haven’t been supplanted in design - but there are more design options out there. Sleek fast boats like QCC and Epic, wide stable boats, and on and on…
But lots of kayakers still buy and love brit boats. Brit boats are also evolving: witness Tiderace, Rockpool, recent P&H additions (Delphin, Cetus), Valley Etain and Gemini…
The quality of Tiderace and Rockpool are considered to be among the top. NDK hasn’t cared enough about quality control and it’s hurt the reputation of all brit boats, but the quality of most is exceptional.
It seems brit boats are made to withstand more abuse - thicker gel coat, heavier, more reinforcing in key areas, made to withstand a rough surf landing.
Boreal was bought by Riot
Riot bought Boreal in April 2012: http://www.paddlinginstructor.com/industry-stuff/4502-boreal-designs-purchased-by-riot-kayaks.html