Valley's Discontinuing A Lot of Boats

Confluence boat manufacture
only manufacture of the composite boats for WS and Dagger (Tempest, Zephyr, a Dagger model or two) moved over to China a few years ago (for the 2009 iirc). At that time (Jan 2009) Confluence released a statement saying the move was for a better price point, although privately there were comments (here and other places) that the move was QC based as well.



The rotomoulded boats (Alchemies, Tsunamis, Pungos, etc, and plastic versions of Tempests and Zephyrs were all and are all made in North Carolina.



So as the discussion continues re workmanship keep in mind which models are made in which country.

Good guess
"I’m guessing it’s confusing enough to have multitude of manufacturers to choose from then to have several products to choose from after that."



Good guess.



Confused buyers are likely to go elsewhere.

wilderness glass
FWIW, I have never seen a pre- china made glass tempest but have seen an 09 and paddled 2 other 09’s and own a '10. I have found no flaws in any of those boats in the glasswork. That is not to compare it to anything else, just saying that these 4 boats came out good, and I have only seen 4 of them.

Maalstrom and Boreal Design
Sadly Boreal Design went bankrupt this year.



Maalstrom makes awesome kayaks (for skilled kayakers in dynamic water), even so so far they only have 2 models.



The quality of Seaward Kayaks is exceptional, some of there designs are great, if not as playful and responsive as some brit designs.



Atlantis Kayaks makes great quality kayaks too - they tend to feel more stable than typical brit kayaks.



Delta makes great thermoform kayaks for comfortable cruising.



Nimbus and Impex are a couple others.



All of the above are canadian (not sure about Impex).



Epic has some great designs - not built to be as durable as most brit boats, but lighter.

Continuation of an era…
Brit boats haven’t been supplanted in design - but there are more design options out there. Sleek fast boats like QCC and Epic, wide stable boats, and on and on…



But lots of kayakers still buy and love brit boats. Brit boats are also evolving: witness Tiderace, Rockpool, recent P&H additions (Delphin, Cetus), Valley Etain and Gemini…



The quality of Tiderace and Rockpool are considered to be among the top. NDK hasn’t cared enough about quality control and it’s hurt the reputation of all brit boats, but the quality of most is exceptional.



It seems brit boats are made to withstand more abuse - thicker gel coat, heavier, more reinforcing in key areas, made to withstand a rough surf landing.

Boreal was bought by Riot
Riot bought Boreal in April 2012: http://www.paddlinginstructor.com/industry-stuff/4502-boreal-designs-purchased-by-riot-kayaks.html

NDK quality problems are ancient history
I’ve owned two NDK boats, a 2009 Pilgrim Expedition and a 2011 Pilgrim, and the quality is as good as anything I’ve seen. I also paddle with quite a few people who own NDK kayaks, and the common QC problems (chopped strand construction, poor fit & finish) have long been resolved.



Of all the American composite kayaks I’ve had experience with, I would say Boreals are most comparable to Brit boats in their design, strength, and fit & finish.

Thanks for the update :slight_smile:

Maelstrom kayaks…
“Maalstrom makes awesome kayaks (for skilled kayakers in dynamic water), even so so far they only have 2 models.”



They’ve just introduced 2 new models, so technically they’ve had 4 models total.



But they are discontinuing the 2 older boats (Vaag and Vital), so they’ll only have 2 ‘active’ models in their lineup.


I wonder why…
I’ve only heard good things about the Vaag

we can only speculate…
My guess? It’s probably a marketing thing… perhaps the Vaag & Vital didn’t sell great, the designers updated/improved them, and wanted to basically say, “Hey, check it out… NEW and IMPROVED boats! Give us another look!”.



Thing is, if that was the reason, it wasn’t a great one IMO.



In the high-end sea kayak world, seems like ppl don’t often throw themselves at something just because it’s ‘new’, but rather because it’s ‘tried and true’, i.e. the accolades and good reviews have piled up, a particular boat has a great reputation, you start to see a few ppl out on the water paddling them, etc. etc.



NDK and Valley seem to get this. They fiddle with and refine boats they’ve had around for many years, but they don’t change the name. Everyone knows what an Explorer or a Nordkapp is, and that they’re good boats. By discontinuing the Vaag and Vital, Maelstrom also got rid of whatever nascent reputation/cache those boats were starting to develop.



Two other odd things about Maelstrom: Their boats have strange-sounding Scandinavian names (yep, the new ones too) even though they’re from Quebec, and they love to center their day hatches, which largely defeats the purpose of having a day hatch (i.e. significant storage that you can actually GET TO while on the water).



In any case, my experience lines up with yours, the few ppl I’ve run into who’ve paddled Maelstrom boats seem to like them quite a bit.



I wouldn’t mind checking one out, but I have no idea where I would… there’s not even a ‘Dealers’ link on Maelstrom’s website. Kayak Academy in Seattle is the only dealer of theirs’ I’ve ever heard of on the West Coast, and that’s about 800 miles away.




Impex builds in Canada & U.S. nfm

day hatch etc
"they love to center their day hatches, which largely defeats the purpose of having a day hatch"



That’s exactly what I meant by those “copy and change” designs. When a change is just for the sake of changing, it’s garbage, not innovation!



The whole idea of day hatch being off-set to the side is so it’s EASIER to get at by the paddler while on the water! Moving it to the center would make it harder, with what benefit?



While we’re on the theme of hatches, I’ve seen a few boats having a “deck hatch”. That might be a bit more meaningful “innovation”, especially for people who aren’t flexible enough to get at a regular day hatch…


for once…
…we’re in total agreement, abc. ;]


Ecomarine in Vancouver
carries them.



I’m paddled the Vaag twice at paddlefests here and was quite impressed.



I have a feeling their new designs will have a bit more stability and appeal to a broader range of paddlers. (that’s mostly a guess). I wish they would at least briefly compare and contrast there new designs to their old ones on the website.

Maelstrom does have
a deck hatch. So maybe their thinking was the day hatch wouldn’t need to be accessed as much on the water - could be accessed by another paddler while rafting up.

day hatch OR deck hatch, not both!
If there’s already a deck hatch, AND the expectation is the paddler doesn’t access the day hatch on water, then there’s no need for the day hatch. Just keep the whole rear section as one compartment! 80% of the boats out there don’t have day hatch after all.



If it takes another paddler to access it, might as well be just a regular rear hatch. More room for storage without that extra wall and hatch hardware.

Keep telling yourself that…

– Last Updated: Sep-07-12 6:43 AM EST –

...and maybe one day it will come true. Their quality is spotty at best and they're still built with the cheapest materials available using antiquated construction methods. They only thing that keeps the company afloat (pun intended) is that their designs are excellent, so people are willing to put up with their flaws.

Lumping NDK in with Valley and P&H in terms of quality is an insult to the latter two, which DO build consistently high-quality boats.

Trying to see this in a positive light…

– Last Updated: Sep-07-12 9:28 AM EST –

Thinking on it more, it may be that Valley was simply clearing out the 'dead brush'/duplicative/poor-seller boats out of the lineup, in order to make room for some new blood.

The Pintail has its fans, but the new Gemini SP playboat (whenever it finally shows up) may be more 'generally acceptable' as a playboat for larger-than-Avocet ppl, i.e. less squirrelly.

The Aquanaut was largely duplicated by the Etain, and additionally, the Gemini ST is coming. If the 'Naut had remained, Valley would've had quite the glut of 'newbie-friendly' touring boats.

And the Q-Boat? Did anyone actually buy those? I've never even seen one.

So one possibility is that in '013, or soon thereafter, Valley will want to bring out some new boats, beyond the Geminis. Candidates?

Perhaps a new Greenland-style boat for larger-than-Anas-Acuta ppl, and also, a 'fast expedition boat' in the vein of the Epic 18X/Rockpool Taran (the Rapier seems to be 'too much ski, not enough sea kayak'/not stable enough).

Both those boats would probably come in multiple sizes and in multiple materials, as is common for Valley.

So, to avoid making a zillion different boats, some of the old ones had to go. Sayonora Pintail, Aquanaut, and the rest, you'll be missed.

(Just doin' my Nostradamus impression.)

Too many models
What happens in manufacturing is if you have too many models, you are actually competing with yourself. You force dealers to have to stock too many models which turns off dealers and is costly for them, and it produces indecisiveness in the consumer and could possibly make them look elsewhere. It’s best to just have the winners because it makes life easy for the dealers and consumers as well. Plus you are not carrying excessive inventory and maintaining tooling (molds) that don’t get used or rarely.



One thing Valley learned from NDK is that people want initial stability. Valley’s old line up demanded more skills whereas an Explorer could actually be used by someone who never paddled in their life and they would feel comfortable.