Valley's Discontinuing A Lot of Boats

Impex builds in Canada & U.S. nfm

day hatch etc
"they love to center their day hatches, which largely defeats the purpose of having a day hatch"



That’s exactly what I meant by those “copy and change” designs. When a change is just for the sake of changing, it’s garbage, not innovation!



The whole idea of day hatch being off-set to the side is so it’s EASIER to get at by the paddler while on the water! Moving it to the center would make it harder, with what benefit?



While we’re on the theme of hatches, I’ve seen a few boats having a “deck hatch”. That might be a bit more meaningful “innovation”, especially for people who aren’t flexible enough to get at a regular day hatch…


for once…
…we’re in total agreement, abc. ;]


Ecomarine in Vancouver
carries them.



I’m paddled the Vaag twice at paddlefests here and was quite impressed.



I have a feeling their new designs will have a bit more stability and appeal to a broader range of paddlers. (that’s mostly a guess). I wish they would at least briefly compare and contrast there new designs to their old ones on the website.

Maelstrom does have
a deck hatch. So maybe their thinking was the day hatch wouldn’t need to be accessed as much on the water - could be accessed by another paddler while rafting up.

day hatch OR deck hatch, not both!
If there’s already a deck hatch, AND the expectation is the paddler doesn’t access the day hatch on water, then there’s no need for the day hatch. Just keep the whole rear section as one compartment! 80% of the boats out there don’t have day hatch after all.



If it takes another paddler to access it, might as well be just a regular rear hatch. More room for storage without that extra wall and hatch hardware.

Keep telling yourself that…

– Last Updated: Sep-07-12 6:43 AM EST –

...and maybe one day it will come true. Their quality is spotty at best and they're still built with the cheapest materials available using antiquated construction methods. They only thing that keeps the company afloat (pun intended) is that their designs are excellent, so people are willing to put up with their flaws.

Lumping NDK in with Valley and P&H in terms of quality is an insult to the latter two, which DO build consistently high-quality boats.

Trying to see this in a positive light…

– Last Updated: Sep-07-12 9:28 AM EST –

Thinking on it more, it may be that Valley was simply clearing out the 'dead brush'/duplicative/poor-seller boats out of the lineup, in order to make room for some new blood.

The Pintail has its fans, but the new Gemini SP playboat (whenever it finally shows up) may be more 'generally acceptable' as a playboat for larger-than-Avocet ppl, i.e. less squirrelly.

The Aquanaut was largely duplicated by the Etain, and additionally, the Gemini ST is coming. If the 'Naut had remained, Valley would've had quite the glut of 'newbie-friendly' touring boats.

And the Q-Boat? Did anyone actually buy those? I've never even seen one.

So one possibility is that in '013, or soon thereafter, Valley will want to bring out some new boats, beyond the Geminis. Candidates?

Perhaps a new Greenland-style boat for larger-than-Anas-Acuta ppl, and also, a 'fast expedition boat' in the vein of the Epic 18X/Rockpool Taran (the Rapier seems to be 'too much ski, not enough sea kayak'/not stable enough).

Both those boats would probably come in multiple sizes and in multiple materials, as is common for Valley.

So, to avoid making a zillion different boats, some of the old ones had to go. Sayonora Pintail, Aquanaut, and the rest, you'll be missed.

(Just doin' my Nostradamus impression.)

Too many models
What happens in manufacturing is if you have too many models, you are actually competing with yourself. You force dealers to have to stock too many models which turns off dealers and is costly for them, and it produces indecisiveness in the consumer and could possibly make them look elsewhere. It’s best to just have the winners because it makes life easy for the dealers and consumers as well. Plus you are not carrying excessive inventory and maintaining tooling (molds) that don’t get used or rarely.



One thing Valley learned from NDK is that people want initial stability. Valley’s old line up demanded more skills whereas an Explorer could actually be used by someone who never paddled in their life and they would feel comfortable.

Very True

– Last Updated: Sep-07-12 11:21 AM EST –

One of my kayak buddies is considering selling his QCC700. Besides wanting to switch from a rudder to a skeg, he wants something with more initial stability. This is after at least five or six years of owning the thing.

OTOH it’s nice to have options
…and many of us can reach the day hatch, even in marginal conditions. Anything worse and you won’t be using much of anything but the paddle.



The day hatch also adds a structural element in a composite boat.



Lots of people like convenience and hate paddling with the deck cluttered. I’d like that foredeck day hatch but it’s not that big.

yep
Same thing happens to auto manufacturers. But they keep repeating the mistake.



FWIW though, I thought the aquanaut and pintail were relatively stable?

re: stable
I understand that the Pintail’s stable enough, but it apparently doesn’t track well unless you’re experienced/very smooth, i.e. it’s ‘squirrelly’.



I agree with the point further above that Valley in general might be moving towards boats that are lower down on the learning curve/are more ‘newbie friendly’. Pintail got cut, Nordkapp Classic got cut.



Aquanaut is newb-friendly, but seems to have been more a victim of duplication (Etain and Gemini ST).



My guesses, anyway… Valley doesn’t talk much about why they do stuff. Heck, they can’t even update their website.

Jay’s onto something…
“What happens in manufacturing is if you have too many models, you are actually competing with yourself. You force dealers to have to stock too many models which turns off dealers and is costly for them, and it produces indecisiveness in the consumer and could possibly make them look elsewhere. It’s best to just have the winners because it makes life easy for the dealers and consumers as well.”



Good points, and interestingly, I just read an article in a psychology magazine that largely echoes them.



Basically, they performed studies where groups of consumers were given either 4 choices, 24 choices, or 64 choices.



The larger the number of choices, the more indecisive consumers were, and the less satisfied they were with whatever they eventually picked.



While the study didn’t explicitly say so, the gist I got was that a ‘grass is always greener’ effect occurred, where if there were a TON of choices, consumers started to prioritize finding/making the ‘perfect’ choice (which may not even exist) over just getting the shopping over and done with and enjoying the item.



When the selection process becomes more important than the having/using/enjoying, something’s amiss.


yes,
I agree. Especially in a market where most customers just need to pick ONE boat for their needs and their life will depend on this choice.

I disagree
Thick gel-coat is not structural, and you are buying into the “heavy must be stronger” notion that has been pushed on you buy builders who make heavy boats with lower gradw materials. Now I’m not dissing the Valley stuff. It’s good, solid work and good old fiberglass is tough stuff. Diolene btw is a polyester and is used to add strength. It bonds well in the lay-up. Kevlar 49 not as well but with the right processes is fine.



Boats like NDK’s will take abuse but not necessarily any more than lighter boats built better with better materials and resins. Again, gel-coat is NON-STRUCTURAL, and I would rather have an extra layer of glass, carbon etc, and thin gel-coat or surface coat.



I helped establish Necky’s production in Thailand with Cobra Int. Those boats are epoxy post cured and will take abuse!! Amazingly strong and really over-the-top strong. Excellent materials, excellent craftspeople,epoxy post cured, superb adhesives etc. They are done right, dont leak, no issues etc. I suspect Tiderace boats made in the same factory are likewise superb and if they are made the same way dont fool yourself they are way stronger than anything I’ve seen out of Britain.



That is NOT to say I dont like and respect Brit boats. They are fine, especially Valley and P&H, but folks this stuff is just all about materials and process and cost. The boats Necky made in Thailand are world class. THey sure as hell couldnt make anything good at Old Town, which is why it was outsourced. If it were my company it would all be done in the USA the same way the Thailand boats are made and I’d employ good people who cared. Id charge more, make less margin, sell direct, and probably go broke…

Tiderace layups
The Tiderace layups are designed by and unique to them and not shared across the other manufacturers based at Cobra.



Some processes are shared, such as the interlocking ‘biscuit-tin’ deck/hull joint, curing and so on, but there are many differences, too.



What is clear is that the factory in Thailand can produce specification far better than could be found in the UK or Europe. That particularly includes the Tiderace models built in Finland, which were nice looking but nowhere near the quality or technology now found from Thailand.


Cool
Actually that speaks to Cobra’s integrity. They probably didn’t divulge the other guy’s matrix, rather employ the same talent, resin, processes etc to varying layups. The deck to hull seam is insanely strong. They are by FAR the finest composite shop I’ve dealt with. The CEO is half Thai, half German and the operation seems to reflect the best of both cultures. Yes, simply superb construction regardless of the varying emotions around producing in Thailand.

Dang…
…this makes me want to buy a Tiderace. =]


Good List; Chimp Pump, Q-boat trivia
Jay,



I agree with your list with the exception of one very minor nitpick. My '98 Anas Acuta is still fitted with an original Chimp pump. The original hose supplied is long enough that you can easily remove it from underneath the seat and use it to pump out another kayak. I have done this many times. The only modification that I did was to add a strum box (which should have been supplied as original equipment) .



At some point did VCP shorten the intake hose? While many owners did this as a modification, I always liked having the ability to pump out another kayak.



As a bit of trivia to this thread, I was responsible for giving the “Q-boat” its name. Stan Chladek approached me and asked for a Greenlandic name for the design. I gave him the name “Qajariaq” which is what modern Greenlanders call a glass kayak. It means “like a (SOF Greenlandlic) kayak”. This eventually got shortened to “Q-boat” as first Valley spelled the name wrong, and then they realized that no one could pronounce it :slight_smile:



When VCP asked me for my advice on designing the Qajariaq I strongly urged them to consider making an even lower volume version of the Anas Acuta (something like a Tahe Greenland that didn’t exist at the time), arguing that the Anas Actua was already too big (for the Greenland rolling crowd, anyway).



Greg Stamer