Jay’s onto something…
“What happens in manufacturing is if you have too many models, you are actually competing with yourself. You force dealers to have to stock too many models which turns off dealers and is costly for them, and it produces indecisiveness in the consumer and could possibly make them look elsewhere. It’s best to just have the winners because it makes life easy for the dealers and consumers as well.”
Good points, and interestingly, I just read an article in a psychology magazine that largely echoes them.
Basically, they performed studies where groups of consumers were given either 4 choices, 24 choices, or 64 choices.
The larger the number of choices, the more indecisive consumers were, and the less satisfied they were with whatever they eventually picked.
While the study didn’t explicitly say so, the gist I got was that a ‘grass is always greener’ effect occurred, where if there were a TON of choices, consumers started to prioritize finding/making the ‘perfect’ choice (which may not even exist) over just getting the shopping over and done with and enjoying the item.
When the selection process becomes more important than the having/using/enjoying, something’s amiss.
yes,
I agree. Especially in a market where most customers just need to pick ONE boat for their needs and their life will depend on this choice.
I disagree
Thick gel-coat is not structural, and you are buying into the “heavy must be stronger” notion that has been pushed on you buy builders who make heavy boats with lower gradw materials. Now I’m not dissing the Valley stuff. It’s good, solid work and good old fiberglass is tough stuff. Diolene btw is a polyester and is used to add strength. It bonds well in the lay-up. Kevlar 49 not as well but with the right processes is fine.
Boats like NDK’s will take abuse but not necessarily any more than lighter boats built better with better materials and resins. Again, gel-coat is NON-STRUCTURAL, and I would rather have an extra layer of glass, carbon etc, and thin gel-coat or surface coat.
I helped establish Necky’s production in Thailand with Cobra Int. Those boats are epoxy post cured and will take abuse!! Amazingly strong and really over-the-top strong. Excellent materials, excellent craftspeople,epoxy post cured, superb adhesives etc. They are done right, dont leak, no issues etc. I suspect Tiderace boats made in the same factory are likewise superb and if they are made the same way dont fool yourself they are way stronger than anything I’ve seen out of Britain.
That is NOT to say I dont like and respect Brit boats. They are fine, especially Valley and P&H, but folks this stuff is just all about materials and process and cost. The boats Necky made in Thailand are world class. THey sure as hell couldnt make anything good at Old Town, which is why it was outsourced. If it were my company it would all be done in the USA the same way the Thailand boats are made and I’d employ good people who cared. Id charge more, make less margin, sell direct, and probably go broke…
Tiderace layups
The Tiderace layups are designed by and unique to them and not shared across the other manufacturers based at Cobra.
Some processes are shared, such as the interlocking ‘biscuit-tin’ deck/hull joint, curing and so on, but there are many differences, too.
What is clear is that the factory in Thailand can produce specification far better than could be found in the UK or Europe. That particularly includes the Tiderace models built in Finland, which were nice looking but nowhere near the quality or technology now found from Thailand.
Cool
Actually that speaks to Cobra’s integrity. They probably didn’t divulge the other guy’s matrix, rather employ the same talent, resin, processes etc to varying layups. The deck to hull seam is insanely strong. They are by FAR the finest composite shop I’ve dealt with. The CEO is half Thai, half German and the operation seems to reflect the best of both cultures. Yes, simply superb construction regardless of the varying emotions around producing in Thailand.
Dang…
…this makes me want to buy a Tiderace. =]
Good List; Chimp Pump, Q-boat trivia
Jay,
I agree with your list with the exception of one very minor nitpick. My '98 Anas Acuta is still fitted with an original Chimp pump. The original hose supplied is long enough that you can easily remove it from underneath the seat and use it to pump out another kayak. I have done this many times. The only modification that I did was to add a strum box (which should have been supplied as original equipment) .
At some point did VCP shorten the intake hose? While many owners did this as a modification, I always liked having the ability to pump out another kayak.
As a bit of trivia to this thread, I was responsible for giving the “Q-boat” its name. Stan Chladek approached me and asked for a Greenlandic name for the design. I gave him the name “Qajariaq” which is what modern Greenlanders call a glass kayak. It means “like a (SOF Greenlandlic) kayak”. This eventually got shortened to “Q-boat” as first Valley spelled the name wrong, and then they realized that no one could pronounce it 
When VCP asked me for my advice on designing the Qajariaq I strongly urged them to consider making an even lower volume version of the Anas Acuta (something like a Tahe Greenland that didn’t exist at the time), arguing that the Anas Actua was already too big (for the Greenland rolling crowd, anyway).
Greg Stamer
Cobra
Cobra are insanely protective of their customer’s need for privacy. If they don’t adhere to that principle, their use as an OEM manufacturer is highly diminished.
The layups in Tiderace boats vary from boat to boat and are very specific. For example, the Xtreme is designed for very big conditions and requires real stiffness and strength, so uses a thicker core material in the hull than other models in the range. The Pace 18 at the other end has a greater need for lightness, so the matrix for that boat is very very different.
In some ways it’s a shame that many composite boat buyers are not as open to understanding the technology as they might be, because the quality of what’s coming out of that factory as a product is amazing.
By comparison, the layups produced by Valley and P&H are agricultural. That’s not to say they’re bad product, just that you are not getting the same thing in terms of advanced product as you might. It’s a bit like having two BMWs that look like the latest model on the outside, except one of them IS the latest model and the other one is built on mechanicals from the 1997 model.
Yup…
“Lots of people like convenience and hate paddling with the deck cluttered. I’d like that foredeck day hatch but it’s not that big.”
And it really can’t be even approaching big, because then it starts to intrude into your leg space. Some ppl really complain about the design of the Cetus in that way.
Who else?
Who else is having boats made by cobra?
I had heard that the newer WS boats made in Asia are not as good as expected so i assume no cobra or bad info.
furthermore…
I assume Cobra builds to whatever quality level the customer wants/asks for, so not all boats coming out of Cobra are built to, say, the same level of standard as the Tideraces coming out of there?
not bad
Having paddled hundreds of miles in both a Pintail and an Aquanaut, I'd say they have decent stability, but less primary than most. Certainly less than something like a Romany, Explorer, Cetus, Tempest, etc. They have a very slight v-bottom, so there's a slight wiggle when sitting flat. This is only really a concern for a newer paddler though, IMO, and quickly becomes an asset in the form of more intuitive edging and control.
I'll be sorry to see the Aquanaut discontinued. I think it's a really great boat. Fast enough, but easily maneuverable on edge, and in rough conditions. Carries a ton of stuff, but never feels high-volume. I expect I'll keep mine for a very long time.
The Pintail is mostly an interesting piece of paddling history these days, IMO. I spent years in one, and enjoyed it, but there are now boats that fill that niche far better. Modern ocean-play boats are faster, more forgiving, more maneuverable, and carry a load better. The Delphin, for example, does everything that the Pintail could do, but better.
Really?!
i wouldn’t have thought the discontinuation of a few models by Valley would’ve generated this much discussion. Other manufacturers discontinue models all the time with barely a peep.
I love the Valley line and am innately skeptical of the boats that are coming out of Asia as I have seen some interesting quirks, although they could also be driven by the manufacturers. My favorite was when a wave slammed into the coaming of a Tidrace (I don’t recall which model) and later I noticed, much to my friends dismay, that the coaming was covered with cracks radiating out from the inside of the coaming to the outside of the lip.
I’ve never had any problems with Valley boats. I find their build to be top notch and that it really sucks up the abuse - I have the extra heavy layup on my Anas Acuta and I’ve crashed it HARD! I’m more intrigued by the trend to lighter and lighter boats. Perhaps the Brit makers consider that their home audience waters are brutal with many pointy rocks and are home to one of the largest whirlpools in the world, the Coryvreckan. I’ve found with many of the lighter boats - Tiderace, Sterling and such - that it’s much easier for me to damage them through normal use…my normal use anyway.
I agree with your words
Same with Necky boats. Lay-ups vary per boat, need etc. Even process varies based on materials etc. As you apparently know these epoxy post cured laminates can take insane abuse far in excess of most other brands. This is due to materials, type of resins, and superb build and engineering. Every boat layup is documented in a cad spec sheet with precise dimensions etc. I miss my time over there and look back with the utmost respect for Cobra and their workers. Folk need to understand that they are the polar OPPOSITE of the China gig!
And again neither of us are knocking the Brit made boats, which have stood the test of time and clearly are fine. Folk should buy what they enjoy paddling.
No
Cobra won’t build bad stuff! They will work with a customer but there’s too much pride there to produce something that isn’t excellent. That’s my experience with them. CEO is a very high integrity man.
interesting to hear
…comparisons between Valley and other boats with lighter layups. I’d like to hear more on this.
I think the reason for the numerous responses is based on the heritage of the manufacturer and the particular models.
re: no
I’m not saying they’ll build bad stuff, just varying degrees of ‘good/great’. I do assume cost is a factor for some boat makers they work with.
If others in the thread are to believed, Tiderace does some proprietary stuff with Cobra that other boat makers who work with Cobra are not privy to. That alone woud make Tideraces better (or at least different) than other boats coming out of Cobra.
That’s strange…
“I love the Valley line and am innately skeptical of the boats that are coming out of Asia as I have seen some interesting quirks, although they could also be driven by the manufacturers. My favorite was when a wave slammed into the coaming of a Tidrace (I don’t recall which model) and later I noticed, much to my friends dismay, that the coaming was covered with cracks radiating out from the inside of the coaming to the outside of the lip.
I’ve never had any problems with Valley boats. I find their build to be top notch and that it really sucks up the abuse - I have the extra heavy layup on my Anas Acuta and I’ve crashed it HARD! I’m more intrigued by the trend to lighter and lighter boats.
Perhaps the Brit makers consider that their home audience waters are brutal with many pointy rocks and are home to one of the largest whirlpools in the world, the Coryvreckan. I’ve found with many of the lighter boats - Tiderace, Sterling and such - that it’s much easier for me to damage them through normal use…my normal use anyway.”
That’s odd… while I don’t know what it was like in their earliest days, the Tideraces being built now or recently have a reputation for being some of the most bombproof boats out there.
And they’re not light either (Xplore-L is 60 lbs, for example… 9 lbs heavier than what Valley claims for a Nordkapp). TR almosts seems to take pride in that. =<br />
CD is weird
Current Designs is strange… they have like 50 different models, and almost none of them get a chance to develop any cachet or recognition, because they’re buried within that HUGE MASS of different boats they churn out.
Not strictly speaking
Cobra are an OEM manufacturer. A brand will provide them specification of the product and Cobra will build it to that specification. Assuming Cobra does an equal job for everybody when building products to its customers’ specifications, any differences in their quality will be down to design, rather than Cobra.
As a large generalisation, if a Necky boat is better than an Arrow or Tiderace one, or vice versa, it’s going to be down to the design provided to Cobra rather than Cobra’s ability or desire to build it to spec.
Cobra themselves don’t just build kayaks, they make a large percentage of the world’s supply of surf boards, full scale yachts and composite parts for people such as Ferrari and Audi. It’s about as far as you can get from a couple of guys in a shed that’s the tradition in sea kayak building, such is the norm with some of the well known British manufacturers.