Valley's Discontinuing A Lot of Boats

furthermore…
I assume Cobra builds to whatever quality level the customer wants/asks for, so not all boats coming out of Cobra are built to, say, the same level of standard as the Tideraces coming out of there?

not bad

– Last Updated: Sep-15-12 9:53 AM EST –

Having paddled hundreds of miles in both a Pintail and an Aquanaut, I'd say they have decent stability, but less primary than most. Certainly less than something like a Romany, Explorer, Cetus, Tempest, etc. They have a very slight v-bottom, so there's a slight wiggle when sitting flat. This is only really a concern for a newer paddler though, IMO, and quickly becomes an asset in the form of more intuitive edging and control.

I'll be sorry to see the Aquanaut discontinued. I think it's a really great boat. Fast enough, but easily maneuverable on edge, and in rough conditions. Carries a ton of stuff, but never feels high-volume. I expect I'll keep mine for a very long time.

The Pintail is mostly an interesting piece of paddling history these days, IMO. I spent years in one, and enjoyed it, but there are now boats that fill that niche far better. Modern ocean-play boats are faster, more forgiving, more maneuverable, and carry a load better. The Delphin, for example, does everything that the Pintail could do, but better.

Really?!
i wouldn’t have thought the discontinuation of a few models by Valley would’ve generated this much discussion. Other manufacturers discontinue models all the time with barely a peep.



I love the Valley line and am innately skeptical of the boats that are coming out of Asia as I have seen some interesting quirks, although they could also be driven by the manufacturers. My favorite was when a wave slammed into the coaming of a Tidrace (I don’t recall which model) and later I noticed, much to my friends dismay, that the coaming was covered with cracks radiating out from the inside of the coaming to the outside of the lip.



I’ve never had any problems with Valley boats. I find their build to be top notch and that it really sucks up the abuse - I have the extra heavy layup on my Anas Acuta and I’ve crashed it HARD! I’m more intrigued by the trend to lighter and lighter boats. Perhaps the Brit makers consider that their home audience waters are brutal with many pointy rocks and are home to one of the largest whirlpools in the world, the Coryvreckan. I’ve found with many of the lighter boats - Tiderace, Sterling and such - that it’s much easier for me to damage them through normal use…my normal use anyway.

I agree with your words
Same with Necky boats. Lay-ups vary per boat, need etc. Even process varies based on materials etc. As you apparently know these epoxy post cured laminates can take insane abuse far in excess of most other brands. This is due to materials, type of resins, and superb build and engineering. Every boat layup is documented in a cad spec sheet with precise dimensions etc. I miss my time over there and look back with the utmost respect for Cobra and their workers. Folk need to understand that they are the polar OPPOSITE of the China gig!



And again neither of us are knocking the Brit made boats, which have stood the test of time and clearly are fine. Folk should buy what they enjoy paddling.

No
Cobra won’t build bad stuff! They will work with a customer but there’s too much pride there to produce something that isn’t excellent. That’s my experience with them. CEO is a very high integrity man.

interesting to hear
…comparisons between Valley and other boats with lighter layups. I’d like to hear more on this.



I think the reason for the numerous responses is based on the heritage of the manufacturer and the particular models.

re: no
I’m not saying they’ll build bad stuff, just varying degrees of ‘good/great’. I do assume cost is a factor for some boat makers they work with.



If others in the thread are to believed, Tiderace does some proprietary stuff with Cobra that other boat makers who work with Cobra are not privy to. That alone woud make Tideraces better (or at least different) than other boats coming out of Cobra.


That’s strange…
“I love the Valley line and am innately skeptical of the boats that are coming out of Asia as I have seen some interesting quirks, although they could also be driven by the manufacturers. My favorite was when a wave slammed into the coaming of a Tidrace (I don’t recall which model) and later I noticed, much to my friends dismay, that the coaming was covered with cracks radiating out from the inside of the coaming to the outside of the lip.



I’ve never had any problems with Valley boats. I find their build to be top notch and that it really sucks up the abuse - I have the extra heavy layup on my Anas Acuta and I’ve crashed it HARD! I’m more intrigued by the trend to lighter and lighter boats.



Perhaps the Brit makers consider that their home audience waters are brutal with many pointy rocks and are home to one of the largest whirlpools in the world, the Coryvreckan. I’ve found with many of the lighter boats - Tiderace, Sterling and such - that it’s much easier for me to damage them through normal use…my normal use anyway.”





That’s odd… while I don’t know what it was like in their earliest days, the Tideraces being built now or recently have a reputation for being some of the most bombproof boats out there.



And they’re not light either (Xplore-L is 60 lbs, for example… 9 lbs heavier than what Valley claims for a Nordkapp). TR almosts seems to take pride in that. =<br />

CD is weird
Current Designs is strange… they have like 50 different models, and almost none of them get a chance to develop any cachet or recognition, because they’re buried within that HUGE MASS of different boats they churn out.


Not strictly speaking
Cobra are an OEM manufacturer. A brand will provide them specification of the product and Cobra will build it to that specification. Assuming Cobra does an equal job for everybody when building products to its customers’ specifications, any differences in their quality will be down to design, rather than Cobra.



As a large generalisation, if a Necky boat is better than an Arrow or Tiderace one, or vice versa, it’s going to be down to the design provided to Cobra rather than Cobra’s ability or desire to build it to spec.



Cobra themselves don’t just build kayaks, they make a large percentage of the world’s supply of surf boards, full scale yachts and composite parts for people such as Ferrari and Audi. It’s about as far as you can get from a couple of guys in a shed that’s the tradition in sea kayak building, such is the norm with some of the well known British manufacturers.

that’s pretty much what I thought
Thanks for confirming.


Glad to Hear it
I’ve always heard good things about the Pintail when it came to wind and waves but I never paddled one. It’s good to know that people consider a boat like the Alchemy to be superior… since I picked one up for a song last year!

One swallow doesn’t make a summer
As a retailer, the last new Valley boat we got was the Etain 17-7. This weighed 29.5kg (65lbs) with hatches when checked in the store.



I wouldn’t believe for one second the 23kg (50lbs) weight advertised for standard layups (even bearing in mind this figure does not include the hatches).



P&H, Tiderace and NDK tend to be much more realistic with weights.

But as a retailer…
…you don’t think that Tideraces are ‘fragile/light’ either, as the gentleman I was responding to stated, do you? 60 lbs is still a lot of boat.



(btw, brutal weight on that 17-7 Etain. SK magazine reviewed that boat, and theirs came in @61 1/2 lbs).






etain 17.5
Out of curiosity, I weighed my March 2011 built etain 17.5 (bought from store stock -don’t think it was any special layup).



Without covers or pod thing, I got 55lbs. The covers + hatch weigh about 5.5lbs, so about ~60lbs total.

Again, I agree
I can look anyone in the eye and say that the Necky product built there is vastly superior to any Necky EVER made be that Canada or USA. Not even close. I suspect Tiderace is likewise an excellent build. FYI Cobra builds for Surftech as well as most windsurf boards worldwide.



I suspect as well that the Tiderace issues spoken of on this thread are probably pre-Cobra built boats.

say
You are quite familiar with the manufacturing process, so YOUR reply would be quite eye opening for most



Would you mind posting the number of man-hours involved in manufacturing of an advanced post cure hull, and your best estimate of price if the same hull were done in the US?

When I was involved
There we approximately 70 hours of labor in a Cobra built Necky. I know one Brit manufacturer claims his lads can build a boat in a day and a half? To devote that level of attention state side would add huge cost and make the boats too costly As is Cobra was a lot costlier than China. I know that in the case of Necky, neither Stoddard Aerospace, nor Fast Passage could build boats cheap enough to satisfy management or the market, so they were brought in house to Old Town where they were thrown together, cost saved, etc… After some really poor results they were outsourced to Cobra where they went from crap to world class. I’d own one now! So, however anyone feels about outsourcing the bottom line is a far superior boat for a reasonable cost. In this case it was outsource or drop composites altogether. I suspect so for Confluence as well.

As I said earlier, I’d opt to build here to those same levels and charge an extra grand a kayak, which is what it would probably be. I’d choose that based on my personal beliefs. If I loved a given Brit boat or Kiwi boat etc, I’d buy it and know it’s just fine.

My input here is only to share real world experience about Cobra and the quality prduced there. Also the choice of adhesives and resins are top notch.

thanks (NM)

Valley’s weighing policy
Have to say, Valley’s thing of giving weights without the hatch covers included is pretty shady.



I mean, is it like you’d ever use the boat WITHOUT hatch covers? o_0



What’s next, the weight with the seat removed? The skeg?