Tips for Noob in a Sea Kayak?

Hip Ups - yeah its spelled correctly
Dry Land training for those core muscles

Higher-Back Seat
Rather than start a new thread…



I’m here after work, and I’ve decided to go out and try the new kayak tomorrow since I have the day off. Today I’ve been cleaning it up, experimenting with the spray skirt, with getting and out, etc.



One thing I noticed… the seat is NOT at all comfortable. The bottom is fine; it’s the back support, or rather, the total lack thereof. It’s uncomfortable to sit in because I have nothing to support my back. At least my rec boat has a higher seat back, which while not great, is 1000x better than this.



I know these things aren’t supposed to have “high back” seats since you’re supposed to be able to lean backwards against the rear deck, but isn’t there something else I can do to get the seat back up a few more inches?



Rob

Not supposed to be leaning into back
The seat is fine. The paddler needs adjustment, which you will get in the classes you have coming up shortly.



Unfortunately for your current comfort range, the folks you will be working with are likely to disabuse you of any notion about actually using a seat back for support. For a good forward stroke, you are supposed to erect and rotating from the hips up, thru the torso. Rotation is point blank not possible if you are leaning back against the kind of seat you had in the other boat. Core muscles etc.



What you should have in that boat is a back band, set lower to support you at the top of your pelvis.



There are things that you may eventually find you want to do about thigh and leg angle - everyone has slightly different places where you need to tweak the seat and thigh braces - but for a proper stroke you need to replace the reliance on a high seat back with reliance on core muscles.

As Celia said
you want to develop the habit of sitting with your torso upright maintaining some curvature (lordosis) in your lower back. That might not come naturally at first so I would stick with the stock outfitting first. Keep your initial outings short and focus on good posture. People tend to slouch more as they become fatigued.



That said, I know a number of individuals who could never get comfortable with the low seated position of a kayak and had persistent back pain. Those who still paddle have canoes now. Hopefully you won’t be one of those.



If after a good trial use of your existing outfitting, you might consider padding your seat with a thin layer of foam to either cant your pelvis slightly forward or back. Stock molded seats cannot accommodate everybody’s anatomy. If you do this, keep the foam thin so as to raise your center of gravity only minimally.

Back bands
Some kayaks come with woefully inadequately supported back bands, but no worries, they can easily be fixed with the addition of or merely changing to a firmer–usually larger bungy cords for the fine adjustments.



The back band is not there as a back rest, but that doesn’t mean it is just a useless decoration. You do need firm support in your lower back, so any modifications should be done with that goal in mind.

Back support
Yes, exactly!! I know you’re supposed to sit upright when paddling, and I do that even in my Rec boat, but the backrest in that one is vastly more supportive. The one in the Tempest is just pathetic.



I went out today for my first paddle in that boat. Wow, what a total difference! Definitely “tippy” compared to the rec boat, but I didn’t capsize. I went without the spray skirt (it was in one of the compartments in case I needed it). The wet suit was a bit hot… I need a shorty version. But anyway… I could “rock” the boat with my hips, and I worked to keep my upper and lower body separate. I sat upright as best I could against that pathetic back band thing.



What was getting me, though, is my legs were cramping up. I have the footrests set so my legs are splayed and pressed up against the knee pads, and I fit just fine between the hip pads. I’d try to press myself against the back band. But no matter how I set the footrests, my legs would cramp up after a few minutes. I would have to stop paddling, remove my feet from the foot rests, and stretch them out. That’d help for a little bit, but every 10-15 min, I found myself on shore having to get out and walk around a little bit. The problem is that there’s just no “free” movement space for my legs in there, and I guess that’s how it’s supposed to be. Maybe in time I’ll get used to it, or maybe I’m tensing up, I dunno.



Anyway… I decided to paddle up-river from the boat launch, towards a dark red boat house on the right. The last time I tried ti in the rec boat, I got turned back once I hit the strong river current in that area. This time, I put the skeg down, and paddled through it. It still pushed me to the side a bit. I actually hadn’t planned on visiting the boat house, but the current had other ideas. As I approached it, I did almost get dumped when I hit a nasty reflecting current off the boat house’s wall. I then went around to the back side of the boat house and got out on its little dock and rested for a bit and had more water.



By the time I got back to the boat ramp, I was absolutely beat! Either I’m trying too hard (tensing up – likely), or I’m even more out of shape than I thought (also likely). I’m very glad I have the class next weekend. I need to figure out how to properly setup this thing so it fits me properly.



Thanks a bunch to everybody for the helpful replies!! I’m having a blast at this new activity.



Rob

re: back band
Lots of ppl replace the stock back band on their boats. There is nothing sacred about 'em AFAIK.



As long as the new one isn’t so stiff that it prevents torso rotation, or is so high that it makes it hard to get back in the boat when self-rescuing (or prevents a layback roll)…

thoughts
You may find that using the leg lifters helps with the cramping. Some of us have found that they help with keeping our feet from getting numb.



I like the backband well enough that I went out of my way to get one for my home built boat. Have you loosened the rear straps, so that when you pull the main straps, the back band actually comes forward as it tightens?

Adjustments
Have you made adjustments to your seat and backband? I have a T165 and I really like the thigh adjustments pulled up pretty tight. When I first started I liked the backband pulled up tight also. I guess my body has gotten used to kayaking. I paddled with a backband strap broken for a long while and didn’t even notice.



Cinch up those adjustment straps and spend some time paddling. I bet those comfort issues will go away.

My thoughts-
I am new to all this too (kayaks that is). My experience was similar to yours at first and I am happy to report that after time in the saddle all the same discomfort you are describing with my back and my legs has disappeared. I feel very comfortable in my WS Zephyr which I feel sure has the exact same seat and back band as your Tempest. I do have a couple of suggestions for you to consider. Your seat should have an adjustable under thigh support. If you adjust that to supply a bit of upward support for your thighs that might help with your legs. Also, at first anyway, consider adjusting the foot pegs so that your knee area contacts the top pads when you put press a bit on the foot pegs with your toes but also so that if you relax your foot you can comfortably drop your knee off that contact point. The back band issue is something that just takes a bit of time. I have mine adjusted now so that when I am seated in the boat with my legs on the pegs in proper paddling position the band just brushes my lower back/hip area - definitely not real tight. When I am actively paddling the back band is lightly contacting me. When I rest a bit I can relax into it. I do not have a strong abdominal area or strong back muscles but still after some time I find this set up very comfortable. I can paddle for hours on end in comfort. I am prone to back pain, but even I am finding this truly comfortable. A hight back seat will interfere with your development of good paddling technique and limit your skills development in my opinion. But you could install one if you decide you just can’t work with the back band. Everyone is different so your set up might end up slightly different than mine. But I encourage you to be patient. Your perceptions about what is comfortable will change fairly quickly as you get time in the seat.



Also, I encourage you to stay away from current at the start. Paddle flat water for a while near shore and then after you gain some comfort level - venture into the current.


Comfort
Yes. I put an old compressed foam block under my calves/ankles. Keeps the heels off the hull. Very comfortable.

Fixes for the pain and current
First, the back band usually takes some tensioning to get it right for a given person. And the back band itself may need replacement to give proper support - Immersion Research and, if they can be found, Bomber Gear both makes back bands that people like. Or you can take a look at some of the cutomizable options in minicell available from places like Redfish. I would caution you to wait on that one though until you have time in the boat - once you’ve shaved off minicell it is hard to put it back.



The backband should give you solid support at the top of the pelvis/into the lower lumbar vertebra. If it is not doing that, you need to attend to the backband. If it is doing so, you need to attend to the rest of your positioning.



I am sure that you feel like you are sitting upright. But getting mostly upright and really being in a position for torso rotation are two different things. Once you get the hang of the later it’ll help your back in a bunch of ways.



The Tempest has very kind stability. You will get used to it and learn to relax fairly quickly.



As to the knee pad thing - they aren’t knee pads. They are supposed to be hitting you at the thighs, behind the knees, unless you want to do some damage to your joints. If you were actively pressing you knees up into the thigh braces it would be surprising if you didn’t hurt. It increases the tension too much, and is a pretty nasty position for your legs and hips.



Most new paddlers lock themselves in too tight. All you need to do is to be able to reach the control surfaces (thigh braces, foot pegs and butt) when you need to manage the boat, not be locked in all the time.



One thing you will likely learn is to get the boat on edge by shifting your butt over to one side or the other rather than locking into the braces. It works as well, is if anything more stable and is a lot less taxing.



There should always be space for you to pull your legs out and let them relax - otherwise it will never be comfortable. But that means that you are just sitting in the boat without exerting any control, and that is probably not something you are comfortable doing right now.



You may need to do stuff like flatten out the seat pan a bit, change the angle and/or get some foam under your thighs to help extend the support of the seat. But I suggest that you get thru your classes before getting involved in that level of tweaking.



Skegs are not always your friend in current by the way, because they give the water more boat to push. Note that WW boats don’t have any such thing. Your first recourse should always be a good edge, which you probably are not comfortable going for right now. It is something else you will be learning.


Awesome tips!

– Last Updated: Sep-30-12 12:28 AM EST –

Thank you folks so much for the tips! This is really great.

Regarding cramping up.. is it possible that this boat is too small for me? I was doing some comparing on websites and this boat has a 12" deck height. The Perception Essence 17 has a 16" deck height. MUCH more space. It might have more room to relax a little bit. And I found a used one too... am talking with the owner about working a trade for some other stuff I have for it.

I did try adjusting the seat bottom. I liked it up as far as it'd go, but then I couldn't get out without lowering it. That worried me that I wouldn't be able to make a wet exit if needed.

The thigh braces definitely need adjustment then. I have them all the way forward so they're just behind my knee. I guess I need to move them back quite a bit.

I went on a 12-mile paddle today in my Rec boat, which has tons more room. Near the end of the trip, my right leg was cramping up pretty bad too (in the sciatic nerve area) and the only thing that helped at all was to straighten it out, and even try to lean back and stretch it out. The best solution would be to stop, get out, and walk around, but that wasn't possible given this stretch of river. But it worries me that this issue will be much worse in the tiny cockpit of the Tempest. I can't help but feel like OJ trying on that glove. :)

Thoughts?

Rob

No, Not Too Small
You are THE height and weight for the 165. The trick to making it feel better; make entry and exit better, is to move the seat back one bolt hole… about 2 inches. I have a very long, lean friend (6’5" maybe?) who paddles and enjoys his 165 with the seat moved back. You can pay a shop to do it or do it yourself.



I moved the seat back in mine. Also moved the seat back in my Alchemy.

More comments

– Last Updated: Sep-30-12 8:44 AM EST –

Do not invest in another boat until you have gotten work in those classes to learn how to use this one. As others have said, it should fit fine once you understand how it is supposed to work.
Kudzu's suggestion to move the seat back is a good first start, though that needs to be done with regard to the correct location for the thigh braces.

As to the adjustments you are considering -
Raising the seat in its entirety is not what people really meant. The adjustment that you may want to add at some point, but not today, is to fill in the lowest part of the seat with minicell or change its angle so it is flatter. This in not the same as raising it up.

A 16 inch tall deck is a very tall deck - way taller than should make a proper fit for you especially once you get the thigh braces over your thighs rather than your knees. If you got by the first round of lessons in it you would find a need to get another boat when you got to trying to roll it. You are buying yourself a terrific backache if the deck is too tall. We know someone who finds the Tempest 165 to be quite comfortable and is at least four inches taller than you. You are just at a point where you don't fully understand fit because you don't understand how to use the control surfaces of the boat. You can't separate the two from each other.

AS others have said, you have found a great deal on a very good boat to get you started in sea kayaking. The Tempest will support your learning what you need to know and be a boat to keep around for guests if you want to go to something more specialized later. Get some advice on fitting it out when you get into that class.

Seat Adjustment
How exactly does the seat move back? I can do it, but from what I can see, it’s attached at the top of the kayak just outside of the coaming, two screws on each side. Are you saying to move it back and only use one hole on each side, or is there another adjustment elsewhere?



Rob

Yes
If your boat is like mine, you remove the seat; measure the distance between the bolt holes and saw about that much off the back of the seat base. You’re right. You re-attach with just two bolts. You put the other bolts back just to plug the holes. Be careful to run the bolts through the seat adjustment straps.



I really think the folks at WS should make this fore - aft adjustment easier. Maybe leave off all that excess seat base.

I moved my T165 seat, too

– Last Updated: Sep-30-12 3:13 PM EST –

I believe the rear of the seat pan only needs to be trimmed if moving the seat rearward in the composite boats. Not a problem in the RM models.

I moved my seat back about 1 inch. I'd consider this the "default" adjustment. After removing the seat (WS does have a video for this - Youtube, I think), you'll note there is enough room about 1 inch forward of the forward mounting hole in the seat pan, to make another hole. You also have to make a new hole 1 inch further forward for the rear hole. You end up with 2 sets of mounting holes on each side of the seat pan, and 4 machine screws still holding your seat in place.

edit 1: Here's the video. Note that this begins with the high seat back that comes with some (all?) Tsunamis, and which could probably be fitted to your Tempest, and which you MUST avoid, at least for a good while of working with your back band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldNMEEA8vE8

edit 2: I have noted that you would NOT be able to put in the high back, after all. The seat pan is molded differently. As the video shows, you can put a back band in a boat that came with a high back, but, you can't go the other way, unless you have a model with a seat pan designed for a high back.

More on moving the seat
Just an FYI - that is how I moved the seat in my Vela. The only thing you may to add is getting creative with minicell to stop the seat from moving around on you in wet exits, something that can’t happen with both bolt holes in use.



If you are less lazy than me you can even bother to glue them in rather than just having to cut new ones once in a while when they fall out. :slight_smile:

It’ll take awhile
to learn how to relax while strengthening postural muscles AND increasing core flexibility. Stretch beforehand, get out and stretch before leg numbness or cramping develops. Besides learning a cowboy self-rescue here’s a basic stretch you should be doing on the water until it becomes automatic. Sit upright in the kayak and twist your torso to the right so your left blade is pressed against the right side of the kayak. Hold that position for a few deep breathes then reverse and put your right blade on the left side. This will twist your gut considerably but once you’re able to do it comfortably on the water you’ll be able to do a basic sweep stroke reliably.