Tips for Noob in a Sea Kayak?

Comfort
Yes. I put an old compressed foam block under my calves/ankles. Keeps the heels off the hull. Very comfortable.

Fixes for the pain and current
First, the back band usually takes some tensioning to get it right for a given person. And the back band itself may need replacement to give proper support - Immersion Research and, if they can be found, Bomber Gear both makes back bands that people like. Or you can take a look at some of the cutomizable options in minicell available from places like Redfish. I would caution you to wait on that one though until you have time in the boat - once you’ve shaved off minicell it is hard to put it back.



The backband should give you solid support at the top of the pelvis/into the lower lumbar vertebra. If it is not doing that, you need to attend to the backband. If it is doing so, you need to attend to the rest of your positioning.



I am sure that you feel like you are sitting upright. But getting mostly upright and really being in a position for torso rotation are two different things. Once you get the hang of the later it’ll help your back in a bunch of ways.



The Tempest has very kind stability. You will get used to it and learn to relax fairly quickly.



As to the knee pad thing - they aren’t knee pads. They are supposed to be hitting you at the thighs, behind the knees, unless you want to do some damage to your joints. If you were actively pressing you knees up into the thigh braces it would be surprising if you didn’t hurt. It increases the tension too much, and is a pretty nasty position for your legs and hips.



Most new paddlers lock themselves in too tight. All you need to do is to be able to reach the control surfaces (thigh braces, foot pegs and butt) when you need to manage the boat, not be locked in all the time.



One thing you will likely learn is to get the boat on edge by shifting your butt over to one side or the other rather than locking into the braces. It works as well, is if anything more stable and is a lot less taxing.



There should always be space for you to pull your legs out and let them relax - otherwise it will never be comfortable. But that means that you are just sitting in the boat without exerting any control, and that is probably not something you are comfortable doing right now.



You may need to do stuff like flatten out the seat pan a bit, change the angle and/or get some foam under your thighs to help extend the support of the seat. But I suggest that you get thru your classes before getting involved in that level of tweaking.



Skegs are not always your friend in current by the way, because they give the water more boat to push. Note that WW boats don’t have any such thing. Your first recourse should always be a good edge, which you probably are not comfortable going for right now. It is something else you will be learning.


Awesome tips!

– Last Updated: Sep-30-12 12:28 AM EST –

Thank you folks so much for the tips! This is really great.

Regarding cramping up.. is it possible that this boat is too small for me? I was doing some comparing on websites and this boat has a 12" deck height. The Perception Essence 17 has a 16" deck height. MUCH more space. It might have more room to relax a little bit. And I found a used one too... am talking with the owner about working a trade for some other stuff I have for it.

I did try adjusting the seat bottom. I liked it up as far as it'd go, but then I couldn't get out without lowering it. That worried me that I wouldn't be able to make a wet exit if needed.

The thigh braces definitely need adjustment then. I have them all the way forward so they're just behind my knee. I guess I need to move them back quite a bit.

I went on a 12-mile paddle today in my Rec boat, which has tons more room. Near the end of the trip, my right leg was cramping up pretty bad too (in the sciatic nerve area) and the only thing that helped at all was to straighten it out, and even try to lean back and stretch it out. The best solution would be to stop, get out, and walk around, but that wasn't possible given this stretch of river. But it worries me that this issue will be much worse in the tiny cockpit of the Tempest. I can't help but feel like OJ trying on that glove. :)

Thoughts?

Rob

No, Not Too Small
You are THE height and weight for the 165. The trick to making it feel better; make entry and exit better, is to move the seat back one bolt hole… about 2 inches. I have a very long, lean friend (6’5" maybe?) who paddles and enjoys his 165 with the seat moved back. You can pay a shop to do it or do it yourself.



I moved the seat back in mine. Also moved the seat back in my Alchemy.

More comments

– Last Updated: Sep-30-12 8:44 AM EST –

Do not invest in another boat until you have gotten work in those classes to learn how to use this one. As others have said, it should fit fine once you understand how it is supposed to work.
Kudzu's suggestion to move the seat back is a good first start, though that needs to be done with regard to the correct location for the thigh braces.

As to the adjustments you are considering -
Raising the seat in its entirety is not what people really meant. The adjustment that you may want to add at some point, but not today, is to fill in the lowest part of the seat with minicell or change its angle so it is flatter. This in not the same as raising it up.

A 16 inch tall deck is a very tall deck - way taller than should make a proper fit for you especially once you get the thigh braces over your thighs rather than your knees. If you got by the first round of lessons in it you would find a need to get another boat when you got to trying to roll it. You are buying yourself a terrific backache if the deck is too tall. We know someone who finds the Tempest 165 to be quite comfortable and is at least four inches taller than you. You are just at a point where you don't fully understand fit because you don't understand how to use the control surfaces of the boat. You can't separate the two from each other.

AS others have said, you have found a great deal on a very good boat to get you started in sea kayaking. The Tempest will support your learning what you need to know and be a boat to keep around for guests if you want to go to something more specialized later. Get some advice on fitting it out when you get into that class.

Seat Adjustment
How exactly does the seat move back? I can do it, but from what I can see, it’s attached at the top of the kayak just outside of the coaming, two screws on each side. Are you saying to move it back and only use one hole on each side, or is there another adjustment elsewhere?



Rob

Yes
If your boat is like mine, you remove the seat; measure the distance between the bolt holes and saw about that much off the back of the seat base. You’re right. You re-attach with just two bolts. You put the other bolts back just to plug the holes. Be careful to run the bolts through the seat adjustment straps.



I really think the folks at WS should make this fore - aft adjustment easier. Maybe leave off all that excess seat base.

I moved my T165 seat, too

– Last Updated: Sep-30-12 3:13 PM EST –

I believe the rear of the seat pan only needs to be trimmed if moving the seat rearward in the composite boats. Not a problem in the RM models.

I moved my seat back about 1 inch. I'd consider this the "default" adjustment. After removing the seat (WS does have a video for this - Youtube, I think), you'll note there is enough room about 1 inch forward of the forward mounting hole in the seat pan, to make another hole. You also have to make a new hole 1 inch further forward for the rear hole. You end up with 2 sets of mounting holes on each side of the seat pan, and 4 machine screws still holding your seat in place.

edit 1: Here's the video. Note that this begins with the high seat back that comes with some (all?) Tsunamis, and which could probably be fitted to your Tempest, and which you MUST avoid, at least for a good while of working with your back band:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldNMEEA8vE8

edit 2: I have noted that you would NOT be able to put in the high back, after all. The seat pan is molded differently. As the video shows, you can put a back band in a boat that came with a high back, but, you can't go the other way, unless you have a model with a seat pan designed for a high back.

More on moving the seat
Just an FYI - that is how I moved the seat in my Vela. The only thing you may to add is getting creative with minicell to stop the seat from moving around on you in wet exits, something that can’t happen with both bolt holes in use.



If you are less lazy than me you can even bother to glue them in rather than just having to cut new ones once in a while when they fall out. :slight_smile:

It’ll take awhile
to learn how to relax while strengthening postural muscles AND increasing core flexibility. Stretch beforehand, get out and stretch before leg numbness or cramping develops. Besides learning a cowboy self-rescue here’s a basic stretch you should be doing on the water until it becomes automatic. Sit upright in the kayak and twist your torso to the right so your left blade is pressed against the right side of the kayak. Hold that position for a few deep breathes then reverse and put your right blade on the left side. This will twist your gut considerably but once you’re able to do it comfortably on the water you’ll be able to do a basic sweep stroke reliably.

Oxbow?
nm

Kayak Kockpit Komparo
So… that Perception Essence 17… I ended up getting it. The trade deal turned out to be too good to pass up, and so I figured I can now compare both kayaks and pick the one that works best. Then I’ll sell the other one.



Tonight, I pulled them out and put them side by side and sat in both. I fiddled with the various adjustments on both. And then I took photos, which you can see here:



http://www.robgadv.com/rob/kayak/pix/kkk/



Note I’m calling it the Kayak Kockpit Komparo (or KKK), so don’t go being offended. :slight_smile:



Anyway… first I sat in the red one (the Perception) and got it all setup to how it was comfy. It’s missing the thigh pads and the PO doesn’t have them, so I’ll have to get some. However, I only need about 1/2 to 3/4" at the bottom and maybe an inch on top, so we’re pretty close.



The thigh pads… I still have no idea how the hell these things are supposed to be positioned, but I’ve moved them back in both cases. They’re hitting me about midway between my hip and knee now (roughly).



Getting into the orange one (the Tempest) is still a huge pain in the butt… or more accurately, legs. When I get in, then get my legs in place, my legs almost immediately start to cramp up due to the position of my legs and my feet. Even changing the positions of the pedals, it doesn’t help.



Whoever said to move the seat back has a good point. Look closely at the photos and you can see how much closer the seat is on the orange one, and both seats are in their stock positions. BUT… I’m not convinced that moving the seat on the Tempest is going to be the fix. The taper of the front of the cockpit (kockpit?) is like the tip of an egg, whereas on the red one, it’s more like the bottom of the egg. So there really isn’t enough room to get in and out. I’m pretty convinced at this point that, had I capsized the orange one the other day, I would have had a heck of a time getting out.



These two boats are kind of at extreme opposites in size. So the answer just might be a Tempest 170. I’d have to see one in person and sit in it to know more, but the slight change in width and extra inch in deck height could be the answer.



Now I’m really eager to get to class this coming weekend and see what their boats are like, for an even better comparison.



Rob

PS on the cockpit shape
You haven’t gotten anywhere near trying to edge the boat. That tells you how to set the thigh braces, also informs on the cockpit shape. Also a larger opening tends to complicate dealing with waves, a normal aspect of actually kayaking on the ocean.



At some point you may have to decide how much open water - ie ocean - time you plan to do. There are some skills and comfort considerations for that which are different from and take more time to learn than bopping around on flat water. It will take some patience which has thus far not been terribly present in your approach.



Your impatience is not necessarily a bad thing, better to be aggressive about learning than to go out and get into trouble by doing something not so smart. But you really need to tone it down and wait for some in person advice to make good judgments. There is just way too much that you don’t know.

You Don’t Want a Tempest 170
Do a side by side taste test between a 170 and a 165 on a very windy day and you’ll find out.

Hmph


If so, then the Perception will be 10x worse.



If, after this weekend, it seems that my only choice is going to be one of these tiny, painful, claustrophobic things, I’m going to sell both of them and stick to flat water.



Rob

Learning takes time
So flat water may be your best idea…

Yes, Patience and Perseverence

– Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:52 PM EST –

I understand about the claustrophobic thing. I got a killer deal on a demo model Alchemy S. There was a bit too much 'friction' when I did a wet exit but otherwise the boat was great. What's the fix? I moved the seat back and took out all the stiffening hardware. Now it's perfect.

I don't know about motorcycles but I make a lot of adjustments to a road bicycle before it starts to feel right. Part of it is getting the machine to fit me but I'm sure that over time my body starts to adapt to the machine.

Back from Class!
Today was my Kayaking Essentials class. I got home about a half hour ago and have hung up my wetsuit and stuff. I just ordered a pizza, and now I can sit back and write. I’m BEAT!! But in a good way.



The boat I got to use was a SEDA brand… not sure which model. From looking at the SEDA website, my best guess is it’s an Ikkuma 17. It was a very nice boat. Fit-wise, it’s in between the Tempest and the Perception. I took the Perception out yesterday morning so I would have a good comparison to whatever I used in class.



So yeah… the SEDA is smaller than the Perception, but quite a bit roomier than the Tempest. It had a fiberglass seat with no padding and a fixed seatback, yet it was very comfortable. After three hours on the water, my tailbone wasn’t even slightly sore.



It was a VERY windy day on the Willamette up in Portland. As in steady 15 mph winds gusting to 25+. Made for a very interesting class. We paddled across the river to a cove which gave some protection from the wind, though it still tended to blow us around a bit. We practiced all kinds of strokes… forward, backward, forward sweep, reverse sweep, bow and stern rudder turns (I think that’s what they called it), and two sculling strokes.



One guy was even nice enough to capsize so we got to watch an assisted rescue. No, I don’t think it was intentional. :slight_smile: (and no, it wasn’t me)



I played around with edging a bit. Not really knowing what I’m doing though, but it seemed like it’d hold an edge fairly well, but since there were no thigh braces, it seemed like a lot of work to keep it up on edge. Or maybe it was the wind. It tended to track a bit straighter than my Perception, which has a tendency to want to bear to the right unless I put the skeg down. The Tempest (the one time I had it out) did the same thing but to the left.



I discussed kayak fitment with the folks there quite a bit. I explained how there were no thigh braces with my Perception, so they showed me the blocks of foam I can get to carve my own. They also explained how to position the thigh braces. I actually had it almost right the first time… closer to my knee than not.



So once home, I stole the thigh pads out of the Tempest and put them in the Perception. If they work well, I will “copy” them with carved foam so can include the originals with the Tempest when I sell it. I also reset the thigh braces and footrests, so if I go out tomorrow, I’ll be set.



Oh, I also played with the seat adjustment some more. It’s still not perfect, but it’s a lot better.



Before leaving, I looked at all the boats they had in stock. I noticed that the Point 65 N boats have this really incredible Air Seat. It has a higher back just like I want, and several air bladders you can inflate to custom fit it. The seatback isn’t so high that it prevents you from leaning back though. Man, I want that seat!! Though honestly, until I upgrade to a much fancier boat, I will find an expensive way to tweak the Perception’s a little more.



So there ya have it. I know now that the Tempest is too small for me, plain and simple. There are “smaller” fitting boats that are bigger than the Tempest that will work better when I’m ready for one. For now, the Perception will do the job until I have the skills (and money) to warrant moving up.



And at $12 for an afternoon, I can rent any of their boats and take them out on the river to try them out. So I’ll spend a lot of time doing that and then have a better idea of what I want when the time is right.



Rob

Glad you enjoyed the class

– Last Updated: Oct-07-12 8:50 AM EST –

By the way - you are taking classes with the Portland Kayak Company? Great choice.

You'll appreciate spending time before buying more boats. Learning some of the upcoming stuff that you have planned, like rolling and I assume self-rescues, often changes your view of what you want in a boat in terms of deck height, fit, that kind of thing. Certain attributes in a boat and its fit can make all the diff between a boat being easy to manage or a really trying, exhausting bear. A couple of folks came thru the board recently with just that experience.

As to how each boat got affected by the wind (Perception and Tempest), the diff likely had nothing to do with the boat other than the Perception having more windage. The way the boats were turning were a factor of the wind direction and whatever current was acting on the boat at the time - as I recall you were in some current on the one day you had the Tempest on the water.

You may want to mess around with just shifting your weight into the bilge to get the boat on edge, rather than going thru the extra effort of lifting with the thigh braces. You'll find use for them quickly enough when you get to rolling. In the meantime, unlike a 100 pound skinny female, you have enough weight that you can get some edge just by moving your butt over and staying more relaxed.

The bottom line though is that, the bigger the target volume of the boat is compared to the paddler in it, the more effort it will take to keep a boat on edge. There isn't anything you can do to alter that relationship.

I am confused by one thing though - your repeated reference to wanting to lean back. I was at first assuming you were thinking in terms of a layback position for a roll, not necessarily required but a very common way to start people in rolling. But I am beginning to wonder if I have that right. Is there some other phase of paddling that you want to lean back for? If it is to stretch out your back, leaning over the foredeck can work too, and the basic rotation exercises once you get some targeted work on the forward stroke also help the back. The lower body is usually helped by doing active pedaling... something else that comes in with forward stroke work. So there are ways to get some body relief in the boat that you likely haven't encountered yet.

Sounds like a great class
I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.



I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?