New Tiderace Boats Coming

Well now, someone is upset …
“I don’t know where you get your info from, but the cost to Tiderace in building their boats means their margins are considerably lower than those of other British manufacturers.”



Where do you get yours from?



“The first step in the logic, is that Valley, PH, Rockpool and NDK all make their boats in-house, so they save on the cost of production by not having to make a third party company some profit for doing so.”



But their labor cost is night and day compared to Thailand. And in England, as in the US, there cost of manufacturing is considerably higher due to labor and environmental laws. Cost of materials are higher due to the same reasons. Isn’t the whole proposition for shifting production to an extreme low cost market like Thailand is that it is more profitable?



“materials and processes used by Cobra are much more expensive than those used by those other manufacturers in producing the boats.”



How so? Where do the materials come from? Would they not be cheaper in a county with lower import fees and less restrictions? And cheaper still for materials that could be sourced locally, based on the lower production costs?



Or are you saying the materials themselves are more better? If so, how do you know that?



Or is the process is is more expensive in Thailand? How so? Isn’t labor dirt cheap? And lower government rules and regulations on manufacturing, i.e safety, use and disposal of chemicals, etc, cheaper in Thailand? Isn’t that why Cobra is there and not in the US, Canada, England, or France, in the first place?



"The third is that Cobra are not a cheap place to build boats. The Cobra built Tiderace boats are far, far higher specification than the ones built in Finland by Charger and it is not cheaper to build them in Thailand than it was in Finland. "



Higher specifications? “far far” higher? How so? Or is it again the cost of labor and manufacturing … this time in Finland … and the “far far higher” specifications imposed on Finish manufacturers by way of environmental and labor laws?



“cost of shipping boats by 20’ or 40’ container from Thailand before the boats reach either Europe or the US, whereas the others are based in Europe and have much lower shipping costs.”



But again, the proposition of Asian manufacturing factors that in, right?



“Frankly, I wish people who didn’t have the foggiest clueregarding what they’re talking about would stop talking as if they did.”



Hey, I’m just questioning, not trying to state facts. You seem to be doing that. How so? Please explain your knowledge of these things. That perhaps may explain why this topic has ruffled your feathers so much. You seem very defensive about Tiderace quality … trying to paint Cobra as some shining light for superior glass manufacturing.



They may be, but one simple fact I do know: no manufacturer goes to the opposite side of the globe to manufacture their product unless there is a significant profit opportunity to offset the lack of hands-on oversight of the process.




Not …
… He simply got emotional, and jumped to conclusions. Defensive. No problem.



I know nothing about boat building etc, but I do know that increasing government regulations and requirements on glass and plastics manufacturing, combined with labor costs, have driven many US builders off shore. I would think, but don’t know, that much the same has happened in England and other places.



A simple google search reveals all you need to know at a glance on those same issues in Thailand.



I do however have some knowledge of business, and can say with some confidence that no manufacturer decides shift their manufacturing off shore lightly. And the key decision is profitability. That gain has to be significant enough to off-set many factors.



I have worked for a few of the world’s largest manufacturers for over 25 years, and been involved in these very kinds of decisions. If it were a wash, manufacturing would have stayed where it was in all cases. The profit gain in all cases was significant.





“But I certainly don’t know for sure, and perhaps unlike nebeginner, I’ll 100% freely admit that I’m just speculatin’.”



My original post was brief and could be read as nothing but speculation as well.



But I’ll admit it is getting a bit annoying when someone continues to bash excellent boats based on their POV that Cobra makes superior boats, and anyone that suggests they are merely on par with other manufactures get the response like I received.

New Tiderace kayaks
Personally really excited for the new Xtra (LV for lack of a better term at this point).



I don’t have dealer pricing from NYK yet, which when it comes will answer the question.



Though it must be said the price of composite kayaks has gone up over the last few years.



Avg price in 2001 when I got into a composite boat was around $2900. The average price for a new composite kayak now is around $3500. Plastic boats in 2001 from P&H/Valley were around $1200, and are now around $1800-$1900.



Tiderace is not a discount kayak manufacturer, and nor is it the most expensive kayak out there, but they have tended to make some awesome hulls out of top flight materials.



If you are looking for a demo in the Midwest drop me a line.



Best Keith

I worked for Tiderace
The reason I know what I do is because I worked for Tiderace when the decision to move was made and was party to all the gory details.



The move to Thailand was motivated entirely by quality and at the expense of terms and pricing that the dealer network could easily stomach.



It would have been far easier from a short-term business perspective to continue allowing Charger Composites to do a mediocre job building Tiderace boats, but mediocre isn’t what the company was or is about.



We took a hard decision to move at a time when it would cost us a year’s business development, because there was a need to move away from Charger and at the same time, the facility that offered us the best quality we had ever seen was Cobra in Thailand. This is Cobra who work to International ISO Standards and work with brands such as Ferrari and Audi.



Frankly, to talk about them as if they are some environment-killing bucket shop is ignorant behaviour.



We went from a European factory where product was at time less than 50% firsts, to one in Thailand where the rate is more than 90%. That is not a price issue, that’s a quality one.



Trust me when I say, our payment and delivery terms were the toughest in the marketplace and the reason Tiderace survives is because the first consideration is the quality of the product, sadly at the expense of commercial advantage.

not picking a fight
Just interested. Is there a reason tiderace doesn’t build their own boats in a local shop.



Ryan L.

cobra composites
builds these kayaks to a higher level of specification than what a local fabrication shop could do at this point. Cobra is simply a better end product option for Tiderace.



http://www.cobrainter.com/kayak-xidc83853.html


KoolAid and sneakers
You should really stop and smell the roses

Here is a commentary on your paradise - http://business.time.com/2012/10/01/dispelling-the-myth-of-chinese-efficiency

cobra composites is in thailand
just fyi marius :slight_smile:

oh no!
How could I make such a mistake :wink:



Bottom line - even though high quality of composite layups can be achieved both in Europe and US the labor costs would price them out of the market not ready to pay premium.

on the plus side…
…you only missed by a few hundred miles. =)




Does Tiderace make a rockered day
boat that would fit big folks - “big” meaning 5’11" 250 Lbs.?

totally different worlds
Thailand is beautiful, Bangkok is quite enjoyable. China is proof that humans have no right to inhabit this planet

probably the best bet…
…for you among TR “play n’ day” boats is going to be the Xcite.

KayakAcademy says it best fits ppl up to about 6’3" and 240 lbs.



The Xtra and Xtreme seem meant for paddlers a bit smaller/lighter than that.



The Xplore-X and Xcape-X are for REALLY big paddlers, but are also lower-rocker touring/expedition boats, i.e. not what you said you wanted.



I’m sure some others will chime in here.

Now I am confused
I was OK until I actually read the whole thread, then got confounded. I just checked out the kilograms/pounds cited for the Xtra as in smaller one on Tiderace’s site, and got a minimum weight of 155 pounds up to more. So this is an average (before the obesity epidemic) paddler weight boat, not a 5’3" not-heavy woman.



So I see a bunch of new boats, but unless I am missing something the Tiderace lineup has not added any new hulls rated for the 115 to 135 pound paddler range, where many women fit. (I’ll take a leap and assume that cockpit fit and deck height will tend to follow the volume, didn’t look for those specs.)



Or am I missing a boat in there? I could be…

xplore_S, xcite_S
both awesome boats for small people



xtra (in new LV) is still going to be bigger in that it needs the xtra volume for surfing. surfing requires volume to float the kayak and start it planing and carving. I would give them a try.

Granted the Xtra is closer
At least a lot closer than the regular Xplore or Xcite, which I am aware of. But I thought it interesting that this smaller end of the paddler population isn’t covered well, yet anyway, in the new series. That may mean that another boat will join the new lineup (or that Tiderace doesn’t see a market there).

the point
that Keith is making - a boat intended for surfing must have a certain hull profile for more efficient planing out

That said - I am really happy to see that “LV” in the lineup - I am just a little under the design weight :wink:

I get that part

– Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:51 PM EST –

I understand that a surfing hull can use a little buoyancy than for other purposes. If that wasn't the case I'd have been hard pressed to manage a clearly over volume boat for me like the Explorer, LV cockpit or not, in surf.

I was wondering what I asked, if there was a boat one size down in the new lineup, since that is something that we are seeing from some other manufacturers. It would be cool if Tiderace were thinking of going in that direction, given the quality of their build and my already-existing affinity for the design ethic of Aled Williams.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

not Xtra
But, TR seems to have a good handle on the market, I wouldn’t put my money against it, since, as Keith said, -S are there.

Frankly, I am a little chafed how boat manufacturers do not advertise their upcoming models.

not to mention Xcape-S
Kayak Academy has that one as being best for paddlers 5’1" to 5’7", and 110 to 165 lbs.



Their numbers for the Xcite-S are very similar to that, but according to them the Xplore-S runs a bit bigger, allegedly best for ppl 5’4" to 5’10" and 130 to 170 lbs.



They don’t have numbers for the new ‘Xtra LV’ (which will just be the new ‘Xtra’), but considering that the ‘Xtra HV’ (what used to be called the ‘Xtra’) is allegedly good for ppl as small as 5’4" and 140 lbs (again, KA’s numbers), it’s hard to imagine that the new ‘LV’ wouldn’t be good fit for the fairly petite paddler.