Tips for Noob in a Sea Kayak?

It’ll take awhile
to learn how to relax while strengthening postural muscles AND increasing core flexibility. Stretch beforehand, get out and stretch before leg numbness or cramping develops. Besides learning a cowboy self-rescue here’s a basic stretch you should be doing on the water until it becomes automatic. Sit upright in the kayak and twist your torso to the right so your left blade is pressed against the right side of the kayak. Hold that position for a few deep breathes then reverse and put your right blade on the left side. This will twist your gut considerably but once you’re able to do it comfortably on the water you’ll be able to do a basic sweep stroke reliably.

Oxbow?
nm

Kayak Kockpit Komparo
So… that Perception Essence 17… I ended up getting it. The trade deal turned out to be too good to pass up, and so I figured I can now compare both kayaks and pick the one that works best. Then I’ll sell the other one.



Tonight, I pulled them out and put them side by side and sat in both. I fiddled with the various adjustments on both. And then I took photos, which you can see here:



http://www.robgadv.com/rob/kayak/pix/kkk/



Note I’m calling it the Kayak Kockpit Komparo (or KKK), so don’t go being offended. :slight_smile:



Anyway… first I sat in the red one (the Perception) and got it all setup to how it was comfy. It’s missing the thigh pads and the PO doesn’t have them, so I’ll have to get some. However, I only need about 1/2 to 3/4" at the bottom and maybe an inch on top, so we’re pretty close.



The thigh pads… I still have no idea how the hell these things are supposed to be positioned, but I’ve moved them back in both cases. They’re hitting me about midway between my hip and knee now (roughly).



Getting into the orange one (the Tempest) is still a huge pain in the butt… or more accurately, legs. When I get in, then get my legs in place, my legs almost immediately start to cramp up due to the position of my legs and my feet. Even changing the positions of the pedals, it doesn’t help.



Whoever said to move the seat back has a good point. Look closely at the photos and you can see how much closer the seat is on the orange one, and both seats are in their stock positions. BUT… I’m not convinced that moving the seat on the Tempest is going to be the fix. The taper of the front of the cockpit (kockpit?) is like the tip of an egg, whereas on the red one, it’s more like the bottom of the egg. So there really isn’t enough room to get in and out. I’m pretty convinced at this point that, had I capsized the orange one the other day, I would have had a heck of a time getting out.



These two boats are kind of at extreme opposites in size. So the answer just might be a Tempest 170. I’d have to see one in person and sit in it to know more, but the slight change in width and extra inch in deck height could be the answer.



Now I’m really eager to get to class this coming weekend and see what their boats are like, for an even better comparison.



Rob

PS on the cockpit shape
You haven’t gotten anywhere near trying to edge the boat. That tells you how to set the thigh braces, also informs on the cockpit shape. Also a larger opening tends to complicate dealing with waves, a normal aspect of actually kayaking on the ocean.



At some point you may have to decide how much open water - ie ocean - time you plan to do. There are some skills and comfort considerations for that which are different from and take more time to learn than bopping around on flat water. It will take some patience which has thus far not been terribly present in your approach.



Your impatience is not necessarily a bad thing, better to be aggressive about learning than to go out and get into trouble by doing something not so smart. But you really need to tone it down and wait for some in person advice to make good judgments. There is just way too much that you don’t know.

You Don’t Want a Tempest 170
Do a side by side taste test between a 170 and a 165 on a very windy day and you’ll find out.

Hmph


If so, then the Perception will be 10x worse.



If, after this weekend, it seems that my only choice is going to be one of these tiny, painful, claustrophobic things, I’m going to sell both of them and stick to flat water.



Rob

Learning takes time
So flat water may be your best idea…

Yes, Patience and Perseverence

– Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:52 PM EST –

I understand about the claustrophobic thing. I got a killer deal on a demo model Alchemy S. There was a bit too much 'friction' when I did a wet exit but otherwise the boat was great. What's the fix? I moved the seat back and took out all the stiffening hardware. Now it's perfect.

I don't know about motorcycles but I make a lot of adjustments to a road bicycle before it starts to feel right. Part of it is getting the machine to fit me but I'm sure that over time my body starts to adapt to the machine.

Back from Class!
Today was my Kayaking Essentials class. I got home about a half hour ago and have hung up my wetsuit and stuff. I just ordered a pizza, and now I can sit back and write. I’m BEAT!! But in a good way.



The boat I got to use was a SEDA brand… not sure which model. From looking at the SEDA website, my best guess is it’s an Ikkuma 17. It was a very nice boat. Fit-wise, it’s in between the Tempest and the Perception. I took the Perception out yesterday morning so I would have a good comparison to whatever I used in class.



So yeah… the SEDA is smaller than the Perception, but quite a bit roomier than the Tempest. It had a fiberglass seat with no padding and a fixed seatback, yet it was very comfortable. After three hours on the water, my tailbone wasn’t even slightly sore.



It was a VERY windy day on the Willamette up in Portland. As in steady 15 mph winds gusting to 25+. Made for a very interesting class. We paddled across the river to a cove which gave some protection from the wind, though it still tended to blow us around a bit. We practiced all kinds of strokes… forward, backward, forward sweep, reverse sweep, bow and stern rudder turns (I think that’s what they called it), and two sculling strokes.



One guy was even nice enough to capsize so we got to watch an assisted rescue. No, I don’t think it was intentional. :slight_smile: (and no, it wasn’t me)



I played around with edging a bit. Not really knowing what I’m doing though, but it seemed like it’d hold an edge fairly well, but since there were no thigh braces, it seemed like a lot of work to keep it up on edge. Or maybe it was the wind. It tended to track a bit straighter than my Perception, which has a tendency to want to bear to the right unless I put the skeg down. The Tempest (the one time I had it out) did the same thing but to the left.



I discussed kayak fitment with the folks there quite a bit. I explained how there were no thigh braces with my Perception, so they showed me the blocks of foam I can get to carve my own. They also explained how to position the thigh braces. I actually had it almost right the first time… closer to my knee than not.



So once home, I stole the thigh pads out of the Tempest and put them in the Perception. If they work well, I will “copy” them with carved foam so can include the originals with the Tempest when I sell it. I also reset the thigh braces and footrests, so if I go out tomorrow, I’ll be set.



Oh, I also played with the seat adjustment some more. It’s still not perfect, but it’s a lot better.



Before leaving, I looked at all the boats they had in stock. I noticed that the Point 65 N boats have this really incredible Air Seat. It has a higher back just like I want, and several air bladders you can inflate to custom fit it. The seatback isn’t so high that it prevents you from leaning back though. Man, I want that seat!! Though honestly, until I upgrade to a much fancier boat, I will find an expensive way to tweak the Perception’s a little more.



So there ya have it. I know now that the Tempest is too small for me, plain and simple. There are “smaller” fitting boats that are bigger than the Tempest that will work better when I’m ready for one. For now, the Perception will do the job until I have the skills (and money) to warrant moving up.



And at $12 for an afternoon, I can rent any of their boats and take them out on the river to try them out. So I’ll spend a lot of time doing that and then have a better idea of what I want when the time is right.



Rob

Glad you enjoyed the class

– Last Updated: Oct-07-12 8:50 AM EST –

By the way - you are taking classes with the Portland Kayak Company? Great choice.

You'll appreciate spending time before buying more boats. Learning some of the upcoming stuff that you have planned, like rolling and I assume self-rescues, often changes your view of what you want in a boat in terms of deck height, fit, that kind of thing. Certain attributes in a boat and its fit can make all the diff between a boat being easy to manage or a really trying, exhausting bear. A couple of folks came thru the board recently with just that experience.

As to how each boat got affected by the wind (Perception and Tempest), the diff likely had nothing to do with the boat other than the Perception having more windage. The way the boats were turning were a factor of the wind direction and whatever current was acting on the boat at the time - as I recall you were in some current on the one day you had the Tempest on the water.

You may want to mess around with just shifting your weight into the bilge to get the boat on edge, rather than going thru the extra effort of lifting with the thigh braces. You'll find use for them quickly enough when you get to rolling. In the meantime, unlike a 100 pound skinny female, you have enough weight that you can get some edge just by moving your butt over and staying more relaxed.

The bottom line though is that, the bigger the target volume of the boat is compared to the paddler in it, the more effort it will take to keep a boat on edge. There isn't anything you can do to alter that relationship.

I am confused by one thing though - your repeated reference to wanting to lean back. I was at first assuming you were thinking in terms of a layback position for a roll, not necessarily required but a very common way to start people in rolling. But I am beginning to wonder if I have that right. Is there some other phase of paddling that you want to lean back for? If it is to stretch out your back, leaning over the foredeck can work too, and the basic rotation exercises once you get some targeted work on the forward stroke also help the back. The lower body is usually helped by doing active pedaling... something else that comes in with forward stroke work. So there are ways to get some body relief in the boat that you likely haven't encountered yet.

Sounds like a great class
I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.



I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?

Sounds like a great class
I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.



I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?

Leaning Back


The leaning back part for me is just to relax. Move my feet off the pegs, stretch my legs, lean back, and relax for a few minutes.



I’m heading out today after lunch to paddle the Essence around so I can compare it to the one from yesterday while it’s fresh in my mind. I may give the Tempest another try in a day or so as well.



Rob

Got it, try this too
Leaning back stretches some bits, compresses things in the lower body as well so you may want to also lean forward as far as possible to alter where you get the pressure relief. And side to side from the torso, which they’ll have you doing for the forward stroke.



The statement above that some people just can’t find physical comfort in a properly fitting sea kayak is for real, though I also know people who got into yoga for paddling and found that it helped other activities as well.



If I am paddling properly and often enough, something this season hasn’t been about, getting back on the water for some distance usually takes at least an inch and a half off my waist from rotating.

Try This

– Last Updated: Oct-08-12 6:00 AM EST –

Take the hip pads completely out of the Tempest. (Not to be confused with the thigh pads). They're just held in with velcro. I've never had to do it but the hip pads can be shaped and put back.

Don't use a crappy boat because it's comfortable. Make your good boat comfortable.

agreed
Take out the hip pads for now. Also, not sure if someone else mentioned this already, but the thigh braces should be hitting you just above the knee. Move your foot pegs far enough away that your legs are not contacting the thigh braces. You should not be in contact with the braces when relaxed.

Braces


Thanks… yeah, that’s how the thigh braces are now. Much nicer.



I thought I would sit in the Tempest again this afternoon and reset its thigh braces and foot braces and see again if I cramp up right away. If I don’t, I may take it back out on the water again.



I spent three hours in the Perception yesterday and had a very nice time. Ran into a guy with Perception Expression 15, which looks like a nice boat too. We exchanged phone numbers and will probably paddle together from time to time.



The Perception definitely feels bigger than the boat I used in class. It doesn’t stay on edge as well either, even with the hip pads. The chine on it looks to be much softer. But it was still pleasant. I know it won’t be my final boat by any means. :slight_smile:



Rob

Thanks, Willi
Wish I’d had that tutorial when I began many years ago.

I don’t really like teaching others to kayak as sometimes I’m unable to make a good ‘word’ picture, and a few folks don’t quite get it but I will definately pass this site on to others.

Tempest Update


Since I had to unload the boats to make room to go (hopefully) pick up a used contractor rack later today (to make carrying the longer boats easier than hanging them 7’ out the back of my truck), I decided to pull the Tempest back out and play with the adjustments a little bit.



I got the seat into the same reasonably okay position that I did on the Perception, i.e. with the seatback as far forward and vertical as possible, moved the foot braces out another notch (farther away) and made sure the thigh braces were in the right spot.



If I’m careful, I can get into it without any leg cramping, and I don’t instantly cramp now. The keys seem to be the thigh brace positions and the foot braces being a notch farther away. This gives me room to relax my legs a little bit when needed.



Getting out still takes some work, and I still have a concern about not being able to get out quickly on a wet exit. If the cockpit was 1" longer or the deck was 1" taller, I think it’d be about perfect.



BUT, that has me thinking about the earlier suggestion of moving the seat back. I think moving it back ONE inch might do the trick. So I might just try that tonight or tomorrow. You really don’t think that’ll compromise the center of gravity?



Rob

Is it correct that you are 5’8"?
If so, I must say it seems to me that that tempest should fit you just fine as is. I recommend that you paddle for about 20 hours before you do anything drastic.