Tips for Noob in a Sea Kayak?

Learning takes time
So flat water may be your best idea…

Yes, Patience and Perseverence

– Last Updated: Oct-03-12 12:52 PM EST –

I understand about the claustrophobic thing. I got a killer deal on a demo model Alchemy S. There was a bit too much 'friction' when I did a wet exit but otherwise the boat was great. What's the fix? I moved the seat back and took out all the stiffening hardware. Now it's perfect.

I don't know about motorcycles but I make a lot of adjustments to a road bicycle before it starts to feel right. Part of it is getting the machine to fit me but I'm sure that over time my body starts to adapt to the machine.

Back from Class!
Today was my Kayaking Essentials class. I got home about a half hour ago and have hung up my wetsuit and stuff. I just ordered a pizza, and now I can sit back and write. I’m BEAT!! But in a good way.



The boat I got to use was a SEDA brand… not sure which model. From looking at the SEDA website, my best guess is it’s an Ikkuma 17. It was a very nice boat. Fit-wise, it’s in between the Tempest and the Perception. I took the Perception out yesterday morning so I would have a good comparison to whatever I used in class.



So yeah… the SEDA is smaller than the Perception, but quite a bit roomier than the Tempest. It had a fiberglass seat with no padding and a fixed seatback, yet it was very comfortable. After three hours on the water, my tailbone wasn’t even slightly sore.



It was a VERY windy day on the Willamette up in Portland. As in steady 15 mph winds gusting to 25+. Made for a very interesting class. We paddled across the river to a cove which gave some protection from the wind, though it still tended to blow us around a bit. We practiced all kinds of strokes… forward, backward, forward sweep, reverse sweep, bow and stern rudder turns (I think that’s what they called it), and two sculling strokes.



One guy was even nice enough to capsize so we got to watch an assisted rescue. No, I don’t think it was intentional. :slight_smile: (and no, it wasn’t me)



I played around with edging a bit. Not really knowing what I’m doing though, but it seemed like it’d hold an edge fairly well, but since there were no thigh braces, it seemed like a lot of work to keep it up on edge. Or maybe it was the wind. It tended to track a bit straighter than my Perception, which has a tendency to want to bear to the right unless I put the skeg down. The Tempest (the one time I had it out) did the same thing but to the left.



I discussed kayak fitment with the folks there quite a bit. I explained how there were no thigh braces with my Perception, so they showed me the blocks of foam I can get to carve my own. They also explained how to position the thigh braces. I actually had it almost right the first time… closer to my knee than not.



So once home, I stole the thigh pads out of the Tempest and put them in the Perception. If they work well, I will “copy” them with carved foam so can include the originals with the Tempest when I sell it. I also reset the thigh braces and footrests, so if I go out tomorrow, I’ll be set.



Oh, I also played with the seat adjustment some more. It’s still not perfect, but it’s a lot better.



Before leaving, I looked at all the boats they had in stock. I noticed that the Point 65 N boats have this really incredible Air Seat. It has a higher back just like I want, and several air bladders you can inflate to custom fit it. The seatback isn’t so high that it prevents you from leaning back though. Man, I want that seat!! Though honestly, until I upgrade to a much fancier boat, I will find an expensive way to tweak the Perception’s a little more.



So there ya have it. I know now that the Tempest is too small for me, plain and simple. There are “smaller” fitting boats that are bigger than the Tempest that will work better when I’m ready for one. For now, the Perception will do the job until I have the skills (and money) to warrant moving up.



And at $12 for an afternoon, I can rent any of their boats and take them out on the river to try them out. So I’ll spend a lot of time doing that and then have a better idea of what I want when the time is right.



Rob

Glad you enjoyed the class

– Last Updated: Oct-07-12 8:50 AM EST –

By the way - you are taking classes with the Portland Kayak Company? Great choice.

You'll appreciate spending time before buying more boats. Learning some of the upcoming stuff that you have planned, like rolling and I assume self-rescues, often changes your view of what you want in a boat in terms of deck height, fit, that kind of thing. Certain attributes in a boat and its fit can make all the diff between a boat being easy to manage or a really trying, exhausting bear. A couple of folks came thru the board recently with just that experience.

As to how each boat got affected by the wind (Perception and Tempest), the diff likely had nothing to do with the boat other than the Perception having more windage. The way the boats were turning were a factor of the wind direction and whatever current was acting on the boat at the time - as I recall you were in some current on the one day you had the Tempest on the water.

You may want to mess around with just shifting your weight into the bilge to get the boat on edge, rather than going thru the extra effort of lifting with the thigh braces. You'll find use for them quickly enough when you get to rolling. In the meantime, unlike a 100 pound skinny female, you have enough weight that you can get some edge just by moving your butt over and staying more relaxed.

The bottom line though is that, the bigger the target volume of the boat is compared to the paddler in it, the more effort it will take to keep a boat on edge. There isn't anything you can do to alter that relationship.

I am confused by one thing though - your repeated reference to wanting to lean back. I was at first assuming you were thinking in terms of a layback position for a roll, not necessarily required but a very common way to start people in rolling. But I am beginning to wonder if I have that right. Is there some other phase of paddling that you want to lean back for? If it is to stretch out your back, leaning over the foredeck can work too, and the basic rotation exercises once you get some targeted work on the forward stroke also help the back. The lower body is usually helped by doing active pedaling... something else that comes in with forward stroke work. So there are ways to get some body relief in the boat that you likely haven't encountered yet.

Sounds like a great class
I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.



I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?

Sounds like a great class
I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.



I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?

Leaning Back


The leaning back part for me is just to relax. Move my feet off the pegs, stretch my legs, lean back, and relax for a few minutes.



I’m heading out today after lunch to paddle the Essence around so I can compare it to the one from yesterday while it’s fresh in my mind. I may give the Tempest another try in a day or so as well.



Rob

Got it, try this too
Leaning back stretches some bits, compresses things in the lower body as well so you may want to also lean forward as far as possible to alter where you get the pressure relief. And side to side from the torso, which they’ll have you doing for the forward stroke.



The statement above that some people just can’t find physical comfort in a properly fitting sea kayak is for real, though I also know people who got into yoga for paddling and found that it helped other activities as well.



If I am paddling properly and often enough, something this season hasn’t been about, getting back on the water for some distance usually takes at least an inch and a half off my waist from rotating.

Try This

– Last Updated: Oct-08-12 6:00 AM EST –

Take the hip pads completely out of the Tempest. (Not to be confused with the thigh pads). They're just held in with velcro. I've never had to do it but the hip pads can be shaped and put back.

Don't use a crappy boat because it's comfortable. Make your good boat comfortable.

agreed
Take out the hip pads for now. Also, not sure if someone else mentioned this already, but the thigh braces should be hitting you just above the knee. Move your foot pegs far enough away that your legs are not contacting the thigh braces. You should not be in contact with the braces when relaxed.

Braces


Thanks… yeah, that’s how the thigh braces are now. Much nicer.



I thought I would sit in the Tempest again this afternoon and reset its thigh braces and foot braces and see again if I cramp up right away. If I don’t, I may take it back out on the water again.



I spent three hours in the Perception yesterday and had a very nice time. Ran into a guy with Perception Expression 15, which looks like a nice boat too. We exchanged phone numbers and will probably paddle together from time to time.



The Perception definitely feels bigger than the boat I used in class. It doesn’t stay on edge as well either, even with the hip pads. The chine on it looks to be much softer. But it was still pleasant. I know it won’t be my final boat by any means. :slight_smile:



Rob

Thanks, Willi
Wish I’d had that tutorial when I began many years ago.

I don’t really like teaching others to kayak as sometimes I’m unable to make a good ‘word’ picture, and a few folks don’t quite get it but I will definately pass this site on to others.

Tempest Update


Since I had to unload the boats to make room to go (hopefully) pick up a used contractor rack later today (to make carrying the longer boats easier than hanging them 7’ out the back of my truck), I decided to pull the Tempest back out and play with the adjustments a little bit.



I got the seat into the same reasonably okay position that I did on the Perception, i.e. with the seatback as far forward and vertical as possible, moved the foot braces out another notch (farther away) and made sure the thigh braces were in the right spot.



If I’m careful, I can get into it without any leg cramping, and I don’t instantly cramp now. The keys seem to be the thigh brace positions and the foot braces being a notch farther away. This gives me room to relax my legs a little bit when needed.



Getting out still takes some work, and I still have a concern about not being able to get out quickly on a wet exit. If the cockpit was 1" longer or the deck was 1" taller, I think it’d be about perfect.



BUT, that has me thinking about the earlier suggestion of moving the seat back. I think moving it back ONE inch might do the trick. So I might just try that tonight or tomorrow. You really don’t think that’ll compromise the center of gravity?



Rob

Is it correct that you are 5’8"?
If so, I must say it seems to me that that tempest should fit you just fine as is. I recommend that you paddle for about 20 hours before you do anything drastic.

Move the seat
As has been said above, it is common. You seem to be having trouble believing this advice. It would be way faster to just do it and get the boat on the water to feel it out than spend more time worrying about it on this thread.



As to wet exits, I take it you have yet to try this. You will find that you fall out of a kayak much more easily than you expect, in fact it can be difficult to stay in a boat that is bigger. Gravity works upside down too.



I strongly suggest that you take the Tempest to the rescue class, get this concern out of the way with someone there. Sweating wet exits is just going to slow you down.

second that…
There are many things affecting the center of gravity so where it was set may not be the center anyway. Plus a little variation makes only minor differences in handling that you likely wouldn’t notice and if you did they are easy to correct.



If you saw the “ocean cockpits” that used to be more common (almost just a circle) then you’d appreciate how easy ANY keyhole cockpit is to exit – unless you’re so big you needed a shoe horn to get in. After your first wet exit and assisted rescue you’ll relax so much that anything will be possible. No theory beat reality for that.

Boat Balance
I prefer the way my boat behaves after I moved the seat back. I like the bow to ride over waves rather than punch into them. If you don’t like it, put a bottle of water in your forward hatch.

Test the seat position -
lossen your back band an inch and scooch your butt back an inch an see how it feels.

.
I can’t be on the water all the time, so it’s nice to DISCUSS this stuff here. :slight_smile:



I’m going to head out either this afternoon or tomorrow afternoon, and I’ll take the Tempest. I have some welding to do on that rack I bought last night before it’ll carry anything.



I wanted to take the Tempest to the rescue class, but they don’t allow it since it’s in a pool; you have to use theirs. I’ll try to get a smaller model to practice in if possible.



I’m surprised nobody has made a seat slider mechanism for a kayak yet… just like they have in cars. It’s not like it’d weigh much, I figure half a pound.



Anyway… I’m enjoying the testing out of the various boats, and I appreciate all the feedback!



Rob

Slider seats in kayaks

– Last Updated: Oct-09-12 10:38 PM EST –

Might even exist for racing, as I recall they can be found in some pack canoes. But in both of these cases the assumption is that the paddler is going to be fairly unlikely to be throwing deep braces or rolls for the hell of it, or playing in rock gardens.... places where a slider seat would not be helpful, could be a real problem.

If you are talking about the ability to move the seat between fixed positions, that all happens from the top as you will be doing. (oops, I may be wrong there. See next reply.)

As to using the Tempest - have you told them what boat you have? Sometimes those rules, at least if you are talking about outside use, are there because they don't want people bringing inappropriately outfitted rec boats into a sea kayaking class. They may be fine with your bringing in a boat like the Tempest as long as they have a couple of minutes to make sure all the parts are properly attached, like perimeter line, before the class.

Pool sessions are another matter - between pool rules and space it is more usual than not to be restricted to the boats that are already provided. But outside classes are usually more about the setup of the boat.