By the way - you are taking classes with the Portland Kayak Company? Great choice.
You'll appreciate spending time before buying more boats. Learning some of the upcoming stuff that you have planned, like rolling and I assume self-rescues, often changes your view of what you want in a boat in terms of deck height, fit, that kind of thing. Certain attributes in a boat and its fit can make all the diff between a boat being easy to manage or a really trying, exhausting bear. A couple of folks came thru the board recently with just that experience.
As to how each boat got affected by the wind (Perception and Tempest), the diff likely had nothing to do with the boat other than the Perception having more windage. The way the boats were turning were a factor of the wind direction and whatever current was acting on the boat at the time - as I recall you were in some current on the one day you had the Tempest on the water.
You may want to mess around with just shifting your weight into the bilge to get the boat on edge, rather than going thru the extra effort of lifting with the thigh braces. You'll find use for them quickly enough when you get to rolling. In the meantime, unlike a 100 pound skinny female, you have enough weight that you can get some edge just by moving your butt over and staying more relaxed.
The bottom line though is that, the bigger the target volume of the boat is compared to the paddler in it, the more effort it will take to keep a boat on edge. There isn't anything you can do to alter that relationship.
I am confused by one thing though - your repeated reference to wanting to lean back. I was at first assuming you were thinking in terms of a layback position for a roll, not necessarily required but a very common way to start people in rolling. But I am beginning to wonder if I have that right. Is there some other phase of paddling that you want to lean back for? If it is to stretch out your back, leaning over the foredeck can work too, and the basic rotation exercises once you get some targeted work on the forward stroke also help the back. The lower body is usually helped by doing active pedaling... something else that comes in with forward stroke work. So there are ways to get some body relief in the boat that you likely haven't encountered yet.
Sounds like a great class I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.
I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?
Sounds like a great class I may have said this before - my experience as a new paddler was that my comfort level in a fairly close fitting kayak increased significantly over the first 20 to 30 hours of paddling. What seemed extremely uncomfortable at first became very comfortable and preferred by the end. Take your time and be patient. Get some seat time. I think you will see that your view of what fits and is comfortable will change in time. Don’t sell that Tempest just yet.
I also agree with Celia - not sure what this leaning back thing is all about - when are you leaning back? Is it just to rest? Or while paddling?
The leaning back part for me is just to relax. Move my feet off the pegs, stretch my legs, lean back, and relax for a few minutes.
I’m heading out today after lunch to paddle the Essence around so I can compare it to the one from yesterday while it’s fresh in my mind. I may give the Tempest another try in a day or so as well.
Got it, try this too Leaning back stretches some bits, compresses things in the lower body as well so you may want to also lean forward as far as possible to alter where you get the pressure relief. And side to side from the torso, which they’ll have you doing for the forward stroke.
The statement above that some people just can’t find physical comfort in a properly fitting sea kayak is for real, though I also know people who got into yoga for paddling and found that it helped other activities as well.
If I am paddling properly and often enough, something this season hasn’t been about, getting back on the water for some distance usually takes at least an inch and a half off my waist from rotating.
Take the hip pads completely out of the Tempest. (Not to be confused with the thigh pads). They're just held in with velcro. I've never had to do it but the hip pads can be shaped and put back.
Don't use a crappy boat because it's comfortable. Make your good boat comfortable.
agreed Take out the hip pads for now. Also, not sure if someone else mentioned this already, but the thigh braces should be hitting you just above the knee. Move your foot pegs far enough away that your legs are not contacting the thigh braces. You should not be in contact with the braces when relaxed.
Thanks… yeah, that’s how the thigh braces are now. Much nicer.
I thought I would sit in the Tempest again this afternoon and reset its thigh braces and foot braces and see again if I cramp up right away. If I don’t, I may take it back out on the water again.
I spent three hours in the Perception yesterday and had a very nice time. Ran into a guy with Perception Expression 15, which looks like a nice boat too. We exchanged phone numbers and will probably paddle together from time to time.
The Perception definitely feels bigger than the boat I used in class. It doesn’t stay on edge as well either, even with the hip pads. The chine on it looks to be much softer. But it was still pleasant. I know it won’t be my final boat by any means.
Thanks, Willi Wish I’d had that tutorial when I began many years ago.
I don’t really like teaching others to kayak as sometimes I’m unable to make a good ‘word’ picture, and a few folks don’t quite get it but I will definately pass this site on to others.
Since I had to unload the boats to make room to go (hopefully) pick up a used contractor rack later today (to make carrying the longer boats easier than hanging them 7’ out the back of my truck), I decided to pull the Tempest back out and play with the adjustments a little bit.
I got the seat into the same reasonably okay position that I did on the Perception, i.e. with the seatback as far forward and vertical as possible, moved the foot braces out another notch (farther away) and made sure the thigh braces were in the right spot.
If I’m careful, I can get into it without any leg cramping, and I don’t instantly cramp now. The keys seem to be the thigh brace positions and the foot braces being a notch farther away. This gives me room to relax my legs a little bit when needed.
Getting out still takes some work, and I still have a concern about not being able to get out quickly on a wet exit. If the cockpit was 1" longer or the deck was 1" taller, I think it’d be about perfect.
BUT, that has me thinking about the earlier suggestion of moving the seat back. I think moving it back ONE inch might do the trick. So I might just try that tonight or tomorrow. You really don’t think that’ll compromise the center of gravity?
Is it correct that you are 5’8"? If so, I must say it seems to me that that tempest should fit you just fine as is. I recommend that you paddle for about 20 hours before you do anything drastic.
Move the seat As has been said above, it is common. You seem to be having trouble believing this advice. It would be way faster to just do it and get the boat on the water to feel it out than spend more time worrying about it on this thread.
As to wet exits, I take it you have yet to try this. You will find that you fall out of a kayak much more easily than you expect, in fact it can be difficult to stay in a boat that is bigger. Gravity works upside down too.
I strongly suggest that you take the Tempest to the rescue class, get this concern out of the way with someone there. Sweating wet exits is just going to slow you down.
second that… There are many things affecting the center of gravity so where it was set may not be the center anyway. Plus a little variation makes only minor differences in handling that you likely wouldn’t notice and if you did they are easy to correct.
If you saw the “ocean cockpits” that used to be more common (almost just a circle) then you’d appreciate how easy ANY keyhole cockpit is to exit – unless you’re so big you needed a shoe horn to get in. After your first wet exit and assisted rescue you’ll relax so much that anything will be possible. No theory beat reality for that.
Boat Balance I prefer the way my boat behaves after I moved the seat back. I like the bow to ride over waves rather than punch into them. If you don’t like it, put a bottle of water in your forward hatch.
. I can’t be on the water all the time, so it’s nice to DISCUSS this stuff here.
I’m going to head out either this afternoon or tomorrow afternoon, and I’ll take the Tempest. I have some welding to do on that rack I bought last night before it’ll carry anything.
I wanted to take the Tempest to the rescue class, but they don’t allow it since it’s in a pool; you have to use theirs. I’ll try to get a smaller model to practice in if possible.
I’m surprised nobody has made a seat slider mechanism for a kayak yet… just like they have in cars. It’s not like it’d weigh much, I figure half a pound.
Anyway… I’m enjoying the testing out of the various boats, and I appreciate all the feedback!
Might even exist for racing, as I recall they can be found in some pack canoes. But in both of these cases the assumption is that the paddler is going to be fairly unlikely to be throwing deep braces or rolls for the hell of it, or playing in rock gardens.... places where a slider seat would not be helpful, could be a real problem.
If you are talking about the ability to move the seat between fixed positions, that all happens from the top as you will be doing. (oops, I may be wrong there. See next reply.)
As to using the Tempest - have you told them what boat you have? Sometimes those rules, at least if you are talking about outside use, are there because they don't want people bringing inappropriately outfitted rec boats into a sea kayaking class. They may be fine with your bringing in a boat like the Tempest as long as they have a couple of minutes to make sure all the parts are properly attached, like perimeter line, before the class.
Pool sessions are another matter - between pool rules and space it is more usual than not to be restricted to the boats that are already provided. But outside classes are usually more about the setup of the boat.
Confluence seat attachments As previously noted, the Tempest has a set of holes in the seat pan, for attachment. I recently got a Wavesport WW boat, sister brand to Wilderness Systems. Similar seat pan. Only difference in attachment is that the seat pan is slotted, and, instead of individual nuts, there’s a single, threaded backer plate to accomodate both machine screws. So, it’s easy to adjust, with just a Phillips screwdriver. Loosen --> slide seat --> tighten. So, they could make it that easy on the sea kayaks, but just don’t see it as necessary.
Yeah they know what kind of boat it is. It has to do with cleanliness. They have a separate batch of boats specifically for the pool, that never go in the river.
They said I would be welcome to do the class in it if it were in the river, but those classes won’t be offered again until next Summer when the water warms back up.
So I’ll just ask them to put me in a small one if possible.
Try this I have to apologize - I read the above post a little too quickly and missed full attention to the pool part. Just tell them you want a fit that will be closer to that of you in the Tempest 165 than something bigger. Really, gravity does work upside down.
I strongly suggest that you pick up nose plugs and/or full goggles. There tend to be two new discoveries when you are upside down in a boat, a spot that they may ask you to stay in for a count of 5 or 10 just to make sure you are staying calm. (and being able to do that is a pre-req for rolling anyway) One is that water comes into your nose upside down in ways it never does in normal swimming, and the other is that pool water hurts some people like the dickens when it gets well up their sinuses. If you are one of those people (like me) it can really mess up an otherwise fun evening of getting wet.
