Braces
Thanks… yeah, that’s how the thigh braces are now. Much nicer.
I thought I would sit in the Tempest again this afternoon and reset its thigh braces and foot braces and see again if I cramp up right away. If I don’t, I may take it back out on the water again.
I spent three hours in the Perception yesterday and had a very nice time. Ran into a guy with Perception Expression 15, which looks like a nice boat too. We exchanged phone numbers and will probably paddle together from time to time.
The Perception definitely feels bigger than the boat I used in class. It doesn’t stay on edge as well either, even with the hip pads. The chine on it looks to be much softer. But it was still pleasant. I know it won’t be my final boat by any means. 
Rob
Thanks, Willi
Wish I’d had that tutorial when I began many years ago.
I don’t really like teaching others to kayak as sometimes I’m unable to make a good ‘word’ picture, and a few folks don’t quite get it but I will definately pass this site on to others.
Tempest Update
Since I had to unload the boats to make room to go (hopefully) pick up a used contractor rack later today (to make carrying the longer boats easier than hanging them 7’ out the back of my truck), I decided to pull the Tempest back out and play with the adjustments a little bit.
I got the seat into the same reasonably okay position that I did on the Perception, i.e. with the seatback as far forward and vertical as possible, moved the foot braces out another notch (farther away) and made sure the thigh braces were in the right spot.
If I’m careful, I can get into it without any leg cramping, and I don’t instantly cramp now. The keys seem to be the thigh brace positions and the foot braces being a notch farther away. This gives me room to relax my legs a little bit when needed.
Getting out still takes some work, and I still have a concern about not being able to get out quickly on a wet exit. If the cockpit was 1" longer or the deck was 1" taller, I think it’d be about perfect.
BUT, that has me thinking about the earlier suggestion of moving the seat back. I think moving it back ONE inch might do the trick. So I might just try that tonight or tomorrow. You really don’t think that’ll compromise the center of gravity?
Rob
Is it correct that you are 5’8"?
If so, I must say it seems to me that that tempest should fit you just fine as is. I recommend that you paddle for about 20 hours before you do anything drastic.
Move the seat
As has been said above, it is common. You seem to be having trouble believing this advice. It would be way faster to just do it and get the boat on the water to feel it out than spend more time worrying about it on this thread.
As to wet exits, I take it you have yet to try this. You will find that you fall out of a kayak much more easily than you expect, in fact it can be difficult to stay in a boat that is bigger. Gravity works upside down too.
I strongly suggest that you take the Tempest to the rescue class, get this concern out of the way with someone there. Sweating wet exits is just going to slow you down.
second that…
There are many things affecting the center of gravity so where it was set may not be the center anyway. Plus a little variation makes only minor differences in handling that you likely wouldn’t notice and if you did they are easy to correct.
If you saw the “ocean cockpits” that used to be more common (almost just a circle) then you’d appreciate how easy ANY keyhole cockpit is to exit – unless you’re so big you needed a shoe horn to get in. After your first wet exit and assisted rescue you’ll relax so much that anything will be possible. No theory beat reality for that.
Boat Balance
I prefer the way my boat behaves after I moved the seat back. I like the bow to ride over waves rather than punch into them. If you don’t like it, put a bottle of water in your forward hatch.
Test the seat position -
lossen your back band an inch and scooch your butt back an inch an see how it feels.
.
I can’t be on the water all the time, so it’s nice to DISCUSS this stuff here.
I’m going to head out either this afternoon or tomorrow afternoon, and I’ll take the Tempest. I have some welding to do on that rack I bought last night before it’ll carry anything.
I wanted to take the Tempest to the rescue class, but they don’t allow it since it’s in a pool; you have to use theirs. I’ll try to get a smaller model to practice in if possible.
I’m surprised nobody has made a seat slider mechanism for a kayak yet… just like they have in cars. It’s not like it’d weigh much, I figure half a pound.
Anyway… I’m enjoying the testing out of the various boats, and I appreciate all the feedback!
Rob
Slider seats in kayaks
Might even exist for racing, as I recall they can be found in some pack canoes. But in both of these cases the assumption is that the paddler is going to be fairly unlikely to be throwing deep braces or rolls for the hell of it, or playing in rock gardens.... places where a slider seat would not be helpful, could be a real problem.
If you are talking about the ability to move the seat between fixed positions, that all happens from the top as you will be doing. (oops, I may be wrong there. See next reply.)
As to using the Tempest - have you told them what boat you have? Sometimes those rules, at least if you are talking about outside use, are there because they don't want people bringing inappropriately outfitted rec boats into a sea kayaking class. They may be fine with your bringing in a boat like the Tempest as long as they have a couple of minutes to make sure all the parts are properly attached, like perimeter line, before the class.
Pool sessions are another matter - between pool rules and space it is more usual than not to be restricted to the boats that are already provided. But outside classes are usually more about the setup of the boat.
Confluence seat attachments
As previously noted, the Tempest has a set of holes in the seat pan, for attachment. I recently got a Wavesport WW boat, sister brand to Wilderness Systems. Similar seat pan. Only difference in attachment is that the seat pan is slotted, and, instead of individual nuts, there’s a single, threaded backer plate to accomodate both machine screws. So, it’s easy to adjust, with just a Phillips screwdriver. Loosen --> slide seat --> tighten. So, they could make it that easy on the sea kayaks, but just don’t see it as necessary.
Pool
Yeah they know what kind of boat it is. It has to do with cleanliness. They have a separate batch of boats specifically for the pool, that never go in the river.
They said I would be welcome to do the class in it if it were in the river, but those classes won’t be offered again until next Summer when the water warms back up.
So I’ll just ask them to put me in a small one if possible.
Rob
Try this
I have to apologize - I read the above post a little too quickly and missed full attention to the pool part. Just tell them you want a fit that will be closer to that of you in the Tempest 165 than something bigger. Really, gravity does work upside down.
I strongly suggest that you pick up nose plugs and/or full goggles. There tend to be two new discoveries when you are upside down in a boat, a spot that they may ask you to stay in for a count of 5 or 10 just to make sure you are staying calm. (and being able to do that is a pre-req for rolling anyway) One is that water comes into your nose upside down in ways it never does in normal swimming, and the other is that pool water hurts some people like the dickens when it gets well up their sinuses. If you are one of those people (like me) it can really mess up an otherwise fun evening of getting wet.
plugs
Good idea; I will get nose plugs.
Until I get in the water and see what the chlorine content is, I won’t know how much it’ll affect me. I grew up swimming in chlorinated pools so I got used to it, having my eyes open underwater, etc. Not gonna be the case in the ocean (salt) but in the pool, it’ll do.
In time I’ll have to get used to not having nose plugs though, since you never really know when you’re going under… not exactly time to stop and put them in.
I’m heading out tomorrow after lunch… taking the Tempest out this time. Will report back when I return.
Rob
Use of nose plugs
It is always good if you can get used to the sinus hit without them, but I wouldn’t discard them. In salt water, they tend not to be needed anyway. Salt water is automatically kinder and more natural feeling up in there anyway. The only time I have used nose plugs in salt water was when I was being asked to do something like alter my approach to bracing, when I was just getting a ton of closely spaced rolling moments until I got it down. There is a point of just having so much water and discharge running out of your nose every time you come up it is annoying.
Fresh water is another matter, and in WW groups you will often see people going thru rapids with nose plugs on. But WW runs tend to organize themselves so that it is reasonable to pop on a set of nose plugs before a given rapid. That’s why you will sometimes see them attached to a helmet.
The salt water rush when you capsize in surf was, for me, very distracting at first because the first rush is so strong. But it is still salt water, so it is tolerable if you can hold off thru that initial hit to get your moment to roll.
boat choice
For initial pool sessions I wouldn’t worry about using a boat similar to the one you own. Find one in which you have a fairly snug fit.
When you initially get in a snug-fitting boat it may feel like you will have difficulty getting out of it upside down. I think you will find that when you are inverted, pop the skirt and everything is wet, you will be able to slide out just fine. The water lubricates everything and gravity is more or less working in your favor or is not a factor, since you will be essentially weightless in the water.
A snug fit will allow your lower body movements to be more effectively translated to the boat for bracing, rolling, and bow rescues. Once you have worked on these in the pool, you will be more comfortable doing the same with your boat in protected, outdoor waters.
masks are great for lots of practice
I use nose plugs for casual practice and nothing for combat rolls. But if doing lots of rolling like in a class a mask is very nice. nose plugs slip off and eyes can burn a bit after lots of dunkings. A dive type mask won’t slip off the nose and gives you crystal clear vision to help you stay relaxed and do things like follow a blade while rolling.
damn you done good so far…
You started off well. Nice purchase!
I'd echo what jay posted: wear your pfd. And learn a wet exit ASAP - if the water's cold and you have the right protection, you'll be fine - maybe splash some cold water on the back of your neck to minimize the shock.
After a wet exit I'd do what Hutchinson recommended and learn to be comfortable upside-down in your boat. wear a mask and noseplugs, use a snorkel with an extension if necessary - whatever it takes to gain that comfort. That will help you with rolls.
Next I'd learn a good forward stroke and commit it to memory.
Next I'd just get out and paddle often which sounds like it won't be a problem! Then you're on to either lessons or instruction regarding edging, low and high bracing, rolls, corrective strokes and so on. You'll need all of these to get out in unprotected water but if you have the desire you'll do it.
You sound just like me when I went from a rec kayak to sea kayaking, except you gave yourself a better start with gear.
Rescue!
I just got home a little while ago from my Rescue Class. It was held in a fitness club’s heated pool, which is great, since the water temps in the Willamette River this time a year are probably lower 50’s by now.
The boats they used are all the same… Custom Designs plastic boats, and from what I can tell, they’re right in between my Tempest 165 and Essence 17 in terms of size/volume. They were 13-14’ boats, since there’s only so much room in the pool.
At the other end of the pool was the rescue class. They used the same boats too, so I know what I’ll be in two weekends from now when I have that class.
Anyway… I picked up nose plugs, which are a good thing. They don’t stay on well, but that’s okay. They protect the initial sinus drenching. I wore mine the first two times, then forgot them the third time and that wasn’t terribly pleasant. So I stuck with them for subsequent dunkings.
Wet exits are pretty straight forward. It does feel a little odd being upside down, but I have no trouble reaching the “ejection strap” as I call it. The main thing was learning to relax and do what I needed to do rather than being in a rush to get out.
During one rescue attempt (when I was the rescuer), due to a poor hold on the other boat, I ended up going over. What’s interesting is that I capsized while leaning backward. So it took a moment to realize I had to bend forward and grab the strap to get out, since my initial reaction was surprise, especially when I didn’t come right out. That was a good thing to experience in a controlled environment, especially since it was unplanned and without nose plugs.
I was really glad to get experience with the self-rescues, since I will be paddling alone most of the time, up until I get into ocean paddling sometime next Summer. I liked the paddle float method best. She taught us the cowboy method too, but I wouldn’t attempt it unless it was an emergency or warm weather (and in flatwater), because it’s waaaay too much work/exhausting to have to do more than once.
And, while it may not be as comfortable, it’s best to have your PFD snugged up as much as you can stand it before you go in the water. It makes all the difference when you’re all wet and bobbing about.
Tomorrow, unless the weather totally sucks, I’m going to see about moving the seat in the Tempest back a little bit. I think that’ll do the trick. The Custom Designs boat I was in today actually had a fore/aft seat adjustment!! So yeah, time to do that, get used to the Tempest, and sell off the other one, and use the money to buy a dry suit. This wet suit crap isn’t gonna cut it for winter paddling.
Rob
Hood, gloves and a big jacket or cag too
Extremities tend to be a problem, and when you do need to stop in cold weather you’ll want to add a layer.
I would suggest that you take a little more time messing with the cowboy if you have it. The Tempest is a friendly boat for that, and once you are in cold water you run into the issue of hands that start to get uncooperative. The cowboy, once mastered, is less dependent on having all the fingers working well than messing with a paddle float.
Sounds like you had a good time.