Wenonah Argosy vs Wilderness

Memories
Wow this post is sure bringing back lots of memories, very cool! Thanks Guys.



I have owned an RX Rendezvous and can honestly say that boat was possessed and has been the only canoe I have ever owned that I truly hated. Maybe the composite boats are better???



How can I get a copy of that picture? Way cool.



Thanks

Tuff-Weave Rendezvous
I owned a tuff-weave Rendezvous and paddled a royalex version and they are significantly different paddling boats with different specs. I really enjoyed the composite version and have heard lots of complaints about the royalex version.

differences
I paddled both the Royalex and composite versions one right after the other. There is quite a bit of difference between the two, with the composite being a significantly better boat.

Eric Nyre used to say that
the Rendezvous had to be carefully trimmed and set up to do its best, and that Royalex versions were more in need of tuning than composite versions.



I think it can be an excellent boat for a combination of lake duty and fairly open rivers with easy whitewater. But I tried one, and it does not spin well enough for the kind of eddy work I can do in my Mad River Synergy or Guide Solo.



Of course, that’s the tipping point of compromise. My Synergy is an adequate cruiser on the flats with a load of gear, and pretty good up through class 3 whitewater. My Guide Solo is not as agile in whitewater, but is not that much better than the Synergy on flatwater. The Rendezvous is farther toward a flatwater boat, much faster than the MR Guide on flatwater, but much less agile on whitewater.

Anecdotes and Fit

– Last Updated: Oct-26-12 1:10 PM EST –

We seem to have devolved to anecdotal experience; fairly unhelpful without paddler height and weight, and experience filters. We all like our boats; we don't keep those that displease.

The width range of solo canoes is 27.5 to 31" excluding the SuperNova. The OP seems to kneel some and would likely want a hull where his knees fall easily into the chines.

Wilderness is one of the wider hulls as the Vagabond/Kestrel/RapidFire is one of the narrower.

The obvious solution is for the OP to try some boats for fit. The triangulation of knees and sitz-bones is the key to hull fit, understanding that knee pads/ blocks can narrow the effective chine spacing and seats can be raised and lowered. That said, the paddler needs to comfortably stack hands across the rail, i.e. outside the max beam, with the hull flat in the water. Standing heel skews hydrodynamics.

My anecdote: At ~5'9", 170 lbs There are hulls that are too wide for me; requiring I move a knee to cross heel the hull. Wilderness is too wide for a guy who can sit on a cigarette paper and swing his legs. Further, I wouldn't have a canoe without bow rocker and don't need the stern skegged to improve course keeping. Cross sectional shaping? I like shoulders high and tightly radiused as per Yost and Scarborough as opposed to low and soft, but then again my arms don't reach very far down the sidewalls.

Wildfire

– Last Updated: Oct-26-12 9:28 PM EST –

I came across a Bell Wildfire, wondering thoughts on this per the discussion.

It is RX with vinyl trim. I know when I was doing freestyle this and the flashfire were popular boats. Never though of it as a contender. Reading back I see Charlie did mention it. I can't find specs on it but I read that the Yellowstone solo is the same boat? In RX the Yellowstone solo weighs in at 47# would that be a real world weight for the older Wildfire too.


Thanks, Mike

RX Wildfire = Yellowstone Solo

– Last Updated: Oct-26-12 10:11 PM EST –

The boat that was originally called the Royalex Wildfire was renamed the Yellowstone Solo.

I think it is a very good boat, much more to my liking than the Wenonah Argosy. It is reasonably fast, can carry a decent load, and is quite stable when heeled which makes it pretty nimble as well. Very nice river boat that does pretty well on flat water as well.

It does not have as much depth as a whitewater boat, or an SRT which would limit its use in whitewater. You still might be able to run some technical Class II stuff if it does not involve big wave trains or significant drops.

T clarify for Mike
The composite WildFire and you played in (I think at MFS many years ago) is not quite the same as the RX WildFire(YS) especially in the Wilds symmetrical stern bow rocker changed to a skegged stern.



I agree with PBlanc in that YS is more predictable in waves.


Wildfire vs. YS

– Last Updated: Oct-27-12 11:11 AM EST –

Any composite boat is going to paddle a bit better than a Royalex version, even if the Royalex boat is a very close copy in hull shape. The increased stiffness of the composite is a big reason, but the blunter water entry at the stems of Royalex boats makes a difference as well.

The main difference in the composite Wildfire and the Royalex Yellowstone Solo (nee Royalex Wildfire) apart from the material is that the YS has differential rocker, with an inch less at the stern. The Wildfire has sharper lines at the stems and shoulders than the Roylex YS. I have heard that the shoulders also extend up a little closer to the sheer line on the composite Wildfire than they do in the YS, but I haven't had the two close enough together to notice.

It should also be noted that there are composite versions of the Bell Yellowstone solo that share the differential rocker of the Royalex YS.

The first time I paddled a Royalex YS I didn't expect to like it a whole lot because I rather expected the differential rocker to make the stern "sticky" as I had experienced with the Argosy. I also expected it to be much slower than it turned out to be. Despite the fact that the YS has an inch less rocker in the back, it still has a bit more rocker than the Argosy does both front and back, both to my eye and by the manufacturer's specs. The shouldered tumblehome and elliptical water foot print of the YS also allows it to be healed over in a very stable and predicable fashion, so the stern hardly feels "skegged" to me.

If you look at the L/W ratios for the two boats, they are very close: just over 6.3 for the YS and just under 6.5 for the Argosy. But I think that the YS puts more of its overall length in the water than the Argosy does, so I suspect that in reality the functional L/W ratios are nearly identical. I suspect that the swede form hull shape of the Argosy gives it a slight straight ahead speed advantage on flat water, but for me it isn't noticeable, but the friendlier handling when maneuvering in current or waves of the YS definitely is.

I think the L/W
ratio of the YS is more like 5.8 and the same for the Argosy.



Charlie would have waterline lengths for the former.I think the number 5.8 is one that he once referred to. There is a lot of overhang on the Argosy. If I were to measure mine in the water I think LWL would be 13’10.



Neither is theoretically a speedster though both accelerate quickly given their little skin surface.

L/W according to CEW; Wildfire
According to my 2009 version of Charlie’s chart, the Argosy, Wilderness and Yellowstone all have a L/W of 6.0.



I like my black-gold Wildfire a lot, but I don’t think of it as multi-day tripping canoe. Of course you can trip in anything if you want or have to, but I prefer something with more volume and freeboard than a Wildfire/Yellowstone. Maybe it would work for Windwalker at his weight and a light load.

Sounds about right
None have changed design.



Speed on a trip is influenced by so many other things. Maybe you have to carry. Maybe you have to take two trips. Maybe the wind comes up.



In the course of a trip a factor of .1 probably does not matter.



I used to daytrip fourteen miles three times a week in a Keowee. I think the L/WL length was something like 3.8… 9’2" boat with a 30 inch beam.

Wilderness
On my way to Lake Placid I stopped by Adirondack Lakes and Trails and put a tape measure down the keel line of a composite Wenonah Wilderness. 177 inches, divided by 30 is L/W of 5.9.



They didn’t have an Argosy in composite. I’ll try Anne and Robbie at Raquette River next time I get over to Tupper Lake,



RX hulls are generally shorter due to shrinkage and the way the plugs are made.

You can get the Argosy in

– Last Updated: Oct-28-12 5:27 PM EST –

Tuf-weave as well, windwalker. You just have to ask.

Speaking of which, I can run a tape over my Tuf-weave Argosy Charlie. Just confirm exactly where you want me to measure to?

Cheers. Jacob.

Kevlar Ultralight Argosy
I have one, and I’d be willing to measure, too. Let me know where to measure if you’d like this info.



Jeremy

estimating waterline length with a tape
Just lay the tape down the keel line of an upside down hull, hold it tight and straight. For Argosy, have a friend hold the end of the tape at estimated 3.5 inches up st the stern due to minimal stern rocker, then estimate ~2.5" up from tape to the bow, compensating for bow rocker, and read the number.

Wildfire
I went and test paddled the wildfire on a lake yesterday afternoon. In a one word description - predictable. It did everything I asked, and didn’t give me any grief. Felt fine flat or on a rail.



So I added a nice old Wildfire to my stable. The previous owner said he had purchased it from Karen Knight, but I couldn’t find her autograph anywhere.



Was gonna hit up a Class II+ run with it today, but the wife wanted to paddle so we hit a nice scenic creek. The cool part was when we got to the put-in they were releasing water from the dam in prep for Sandy hitting hard tomorrow. I knew this before we went, by looking at the river gauge, but didn’t tell the wife. :wink: Everything else was too low. It was pretty cool getting on a flooded creek before the rains even started. It was running fast and in the trees. No WW just fast current with some swirly eddy lines. The Wildfire yielded no surprises and we got along just fine.



So for know my search and desire for a solo river tripper is quenched. Pending further adventures with the Wildfire.



Thanks for all the informative discussion.



Mike


For someone
With the skill to control that loose stern, you probably got the best of the litter.

Got to like a happy ending.

– Last Updated: Oct-29-12 4:44 AM EST –

Just to wrap things up: the composite Argosy waterline length, for all intents and purposes, is 14' lightly loaded.

One more
endorsement. We recently brought an old Wildfire into our household for my wife to paddle. She had been practicing freestyle moves in an Argosy. The Wildfire is a big improvement. It turns easier and heels further and more predictably. And, it feels faster. Should have started with the Wildfire. We’ll sell the Argosy in the spring.



Peter