Wood gunnel care?

Wood trim

– Last Updated: Nov-03-12 11:17 AM EST –

I use Watco Teak Oil & have for several years. Typically 2 coats of it(as needed).
I let it dry between coat # 1 & #2.
Works for me; no mixing, easy to apply, and have never had a problem.

Be sure to wipe off any drips on the hull.

BOB

I have found that
repeated applications of Watco Teak oil tend to darken light colored ash a bit over time, at least relative to regular Watco oil. Might be the varnish in the Watco teak oil ambering a bit with aging.



If you want significantly darker rails, I would suggest applying stain before oiling, or mixing a little stain in with the penetrating oil. Ash seems to take up the Minwax cherry stain very nicely, especially if you first use the Minwax stain prep.

As noted in another thread, oil finishes
in general contain a varnish component. The thinnest oil I’ve used, Minwax 209 clear, contains a varnish component.



But that varnish component is not as effective a sealer and surface hardener as quality spar or polyurethane varnish.



Others have pointed out that even thin oils like Minwax 209 leave only a very thin layer of penetration.



And I’ll just say again that increasing moisture content will weaken wood somewhat. Epoxy and varnish minimize moisture infiltration. Oiling? I don’t think so.

Watco comes in many stains
If you are trying to change the color of light wood when using Watco, keep in mind that you can get Watco Teak (my favorite) with many different stains mixed in. I’m currently using medium walnut.



Watco is a mixture of linseed oil, varnish and drying chemicals.



“Oiling” with Watco is something you will have to do at least twice a season to keep them in shiny shape. Five coats of a good polyurethane or spar varnish can last many years in my experience.



Alternatively, you can do a good varnish job the first time and then touch up occasionally with a wipe-on varnish, especially where the paddle rubs the gunwales. That’s what I do with my wooden paddle blades.

OK I’ll be the odd ball…
I use a mixture of 50% turpentine and 50% linseed oil.



Mike


Pleasant aroma.
There’s nothing oddball about the traditional homebrew.



Add a little varnish, a metallic siccative, and some fungicide, then switch mineral spirits for the turpentine and you’ve basically got outdoor Watco.

Watko

– Last Updated: Nov-06-12 8:56 AM EST –

But I use my canoes a lot and have to slide them onto racks. I find that I sand and apply at least every 2-3 months, unless it's a boat that sits in the barn unused. The minimum I would apply, Mike, would be twice a year.

An old friend told me to try Olive oil once, and as I recall it worked? But haven't tried that in a long time. Seems like I had to put several coats on, but had a nice sheen and "Felt" smooth. Been almost a decade ago, but must have not been "Perfect" since I went back to Watko.
WW

fungicide
I think that is why some folks add vinegar to the mixture.

Watco yes - Deks Olje yes yes

– Last Updated: Nov-06-12 2:31 PM EST –

I've used Watco Teak (Marine) for years and like it a lot, but I've had better results with Deks Olje. In 1985 I applied 4 or 5 coats of step 1, then 2 coats of step 2 to the rails on my Proem 85. I've never needed to do any other maintenance and have used this boat extensively. The wood looks about the same as it did in 1985.

Here are pictures taken of that canoe within the past year.


http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff470/mvbrando/Proem%20Rails/IMG_6996.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff470/mvbrando/Proem%20Rails/IMG_7001.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff470/mvbrando/Proem%20Rails/IMG_7000.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff470/mvbrando/Proem%20Rails/IMG_6999.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff470/mvbrando/Proem%20Rails/IMG_6998.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff470/mvbrando/Proem%20Rails/IMG_7002.jpg

-mike

I agree
The nicest looking finish I ever got was with Deks Olje but it has sort of disappeared from stores in the US.



I know there are sources available on-line. Have you bought any lately? If so, where did you get it?

About a month ago
I bought Deks 1 and 2 from here:



http://www.goodboatgear.com/search?stext=deks&search=Go!



They seemed to have about the lowest price. I want to use it on one of my Reverie 2s.

Wow!
My compliments. I’ve been using Watco on my Explorer’s ash gunwales, and while I like the way it makes them look I might have to pony up for some of that if it will get me those kinds of results. Much longer lasting too.

Deks Olje ingredients …
… are essentially the same as Watco – linseed oil, varnish and solvents/driers – though in different proportions, according to the material safety data sheets.



As to Mike’s Proem – reportedly stored between uses in the Smithsonian preservation vault – I would ask what kind of wood that is. Red oak?

Ingredients may be similar
but the results are different.



Part of this might be the difference in the application process.

I’m really surprised to hear

– Last Updated: Nov-06-12 9:36 PM EST –

they are essentially the same. You're a believable source in my book Glenn, but I remember that the odor of Deks was distinctively different from Watco. That is very unscientific, I know, but the results have been obvious to me. I've used Watco marine on all other canoes I've owned, stored them in the same vault in the Smithsonian, and I still have to re-Watco those about every year.

The wood on the Proem is mahogany. ... and really while I've always stored all my canoes indoors, I've had this canoe out hundreds of times and on many, many trips. Yes I treat my canoes well, but I think probably most of us do.

Mike

Watco and Deks behave quite differently

– Last Updated: Nov-07-12 3:00 AM EST –

For those who are unfamiliar with Deks Olje, Deks D1 is the basic penetrating oil. Deks D2 is applied after application of D1 if you desire a satin or high gloss finish.

To get the best results, the Deks must be applied according to instructions. D1 is applied to the wood in repeated coats, about every 15 minutes or so, until the wood will not take any more. This will typically be 5-6 coats. If D2 is not applied after D1 the finish will be matte (but quite pleasant).

If you want a satin finish you can apply a couple of coats of a 50:50 mixture of D1 and D2. If you want a high gloss finish, multiple coats of D2 are applied.

The main difference between the handling of Watco and Deks is how the oil penetrates the wood. Deks seems to penetrate better. Of course, you can try to emulate the Deks D1 application process with Watco, but after about the 3rd coat, Watco just sits on the surface of the wood and turns gummy, unlike the Deks.

So the Deks application process is more time consuming and Deks is considerably more expensive. But in my experience it produces a much nicer luster and is way more durable than Watco oils.

I have known people who have gotten cosmetic results with Watco oils nearly equal to that of Deks, but they applied Watco oil after every trip out. So maybe if you are willing to apply it dozens of times a year, Watco will eventually penetrate wood to the same extent Deks does.

Penetratingly ambiguous stuff
I have no position on which of these “oils” produce better results for different users on different woods.



I do know that neither Watco nor Deks Olje is an oil per se, but both rather are mixtures of linseed oil and different combinations of different forms of petroleum naphtha. I don’t see how the oil of either could “penetrate” more than the other, since the oil in both cases is linseed oil.



More generally, I don’t really understand why why any of these oil mixtures are different from varnishes, broadly defined, and indeed Deks 2 is marketed as a “high gloss oil varnish”. Perhaps the primary difference is the amount of linseed oil in the formulation and the cure speeds of the drier and solvent chemicals.



I suspect the finish of each of these products is determined simply by how many multiple layers are ultimately built up on top of each other, and how hard they dry, so as to enhance protection, gloss and lasting ability – the same way that is done with products labeled simply as varnishes.



I note that the Deks technical data specify that the product has been formulated for “thick, dense, oily and hard to impregnate woods” such as teak, mahogany, oak, and a bunch of tropical exotics I have never heard of. From all this, it seems reasonable that Deks, if applied properly, would be a very good finish for mahogany woodwork on a canoe.



I don’t know if ash, pine and spruce, which are common gunnel materials on flat water canoes, fall into Deks’ target of thick, dense, oily and hard to impregnate woods. However, spar varnish has worked well for me on these wood gunnels, giving many years of lasting gloss. Watco also does a very nice job, especially if rubbed properly to gloss, but it has to be applied much more frequently than spar varnish and probably Deks varnish.

Deks versus Watco versus varnish

– Last Updated: Nov-07-12 12:57 PM EST –

Deks D1 is a penetrating oil that results in a finish similar (but better) than Watco oil. Both are very different from the finish obtained with a good quality varnish, however. The difference in the finish is very readily apparent. Although Deks is more durable than Watco, it doesn't have the staying power of polyurethane or spar varnish, but it doesn't scratch up the same either.

Watco makes a Satin Wax product that can be applied over their regular penetrating oil that does produce a fair satin finish but not as nice as using the Deks D1:D2 mixture. To my knowledge, Watco doesn't make a product that produces a finish equivalent to the high gloss finish obtained by applying undiluted D2 over D1. I haven't tried applying varnish over Watco. I don't know how that would work out.

When I bought my first wood gunwaled (an MRC Explorer) back in the 1970s, I bought a quart of D1 and D2 from a local supplier in Minneapolis and used it every couple of years until I moved. After that, I couldn't find Deks locally and switched to Watco oil and have used several varieties. It is pretty easy to apply a quick coat of Watco, but I find that it doesn't stay nearly as well. After car-topping my boats and paddling them there are often bare looking areas along the midships gunwales and where the racks contact the rails after even one weekend trip. And I have never gotten as nice an appearance with Watco as with Deks, although Watco is not bad.

I think if you would use the product the difference in qualities between Deks and Watco would be immediately apparent.

White ash varies somewhat in density but is generally considered a denser wood, not as dense as some teaks, but comparable to maple and most mahoganies with some varieties approaching the density of hickory. It is generally considerably denser than spruce and most pines.

I think “penetrating oil” is …
… largely a marketing term. The oil in all these mixtures and in all varnishes – which often is linseed – surely penetrates somewhat. But how much penetration is going on?



Deks 1 recommends a minimum of 2 coats or more until you are satisfied with the finish. On top of that, Deks 2 – marketed as a “varnish” – recommends 6 coats as optimum. Clearly, all this goop in 8-12 layers is not penetrating the wood; it is simply building up in layers on top of itself.



These heavy oil mixtures may not dry as hard as a spar varnish, which actually is fairly flexible itself. Polyurethane dries even harder and should be more waterproof than spar varnish.



I did get a can of Deks Olje when I bought my Dagger Encore. Dagger gave it away with the canoe. It was only one can, so maybe it was Deks 1. I applied it and didn’t notice any difference from Watco. It looked gone and the gunwales looked dry within a year. But I don’t think I’ve applied anything in the 20 years since, with the canoe stored outside all that time, so maybe it’s still doing something protective.



Speaking just for myself, whether or not I get a nice protective and aesthetic finish on my canoe woodwork and paddles is overwhelmingly a function of how diligent I am in refinishing the wood when it starts to look bad – no matter what finish I began with. That’s why some of my boats rot and others look good.



Mike McCrea has test panels of six or eight different finishes. I wonder how they are faring. Too bad he does’t post here.

I agree, Glenn.

– Last Updated: Nov-07-12 2:11 PM EST –

The CW on oil finishes is that any difference in surface penetration depends as much or more on the species to which they are applied as anything and that traditional varnish application achieves comparable depth of "penetration" on long grain. Really, we're talking about dimensions measured in microns here.

Scrape the tip of a sharp nail across a gunnel and tell me how deep the finish has penetrated and hardened in the wood. Safe bet it's about as deep as a sheet of newsprint is thick.

The differences between the various oil/solvent/varnish finishes are minor variations on formulas that joiners, carpenters, and shipbuilders have been using for generations. There are modern resins and refined solvents that may be tougher or cheaper and the proportions may vary a bit, but it's mostly marketing that attempts to differentiate most of these products.

I always thought "penetrating oil" was stuff you put on rusted nuts and bolts to loosen them.