Rocker touring Kayak question

Zephyr vs. Alchemy
All said above is good advice, but there is some personal pref. at play. I’ve got both a Z 155 & Alch. 14S, (& a tempest 165pro as well) like all of them very much. Significantly diff boats IMO. I pref. the Z for most of my “active cond.” paddles because it is almost as manuverable as the Dagger, rides the rough water almost as well as the Tempest and I’m just more comfy with the fit. Love the way it surfs in bigger cond. as well. The Delphin was fun as noted, don’t much care for the feel of the Valley boats. Personal pref. Try 'em all if you can.



All thebest, t.george


Down to Dagger or WS
I think I am down to the alchemy and the Zephyr, I am right on the edge size wise between most manufacturers between LV hand HV boats (5’11" 190lbs) so the Zephyrs larger cockpit opening may give it the edge, it looks like I am going to have to try on some boats for a nice snug fit.

The Fit
I got a real bargain on my demo (smaller)Alchemy so I wasn’t shy about modifying it to make it fit better. I took out the stiffening hardware and moved the seat back in it. My buddy at about 6’4" and 190 lb paddled it very comfortably.

North Shore Aspect RM
Check the reviews on for this boat.

Raven
You should also consider the New Eddyline Raven. Just released this fall. Getting rave reviews.

Just ordered a zephyr 160
Similar reasoning. I got the 160 as I’m also on that same border, but felt the little extra room would help me with comfort getting into the boat in particular, since I had hip surgery recently. The cockpit size is the same, but the deck height is slightly higher and the extra volume keeps it a bit higher still in the water.



Take out any padding before you try a boat, BTW. With all the padding in at a dealership, I had trouble getting in easily; with it out, no trouble at all. So building padding back up from zero seems to me to be the way to fit into a boat over time.



Tried the alchemy (before surgery) and found it thrillingly agile and quick, but a very very tight fit, even with the L size. People here on the Pacific seem to love it for rock gardening for obvious reasons. It’s a sweet boat, but not really much lighter than the zephyr from what I can tell.



We’ll see if I made the right choice for my attempt to upgrade my skills in wide open SF Bay and ocean. So far all reviews, including that of a paddling buddy who has the exact same model, suggest that I will.



I’m nervous about having bought a boat without being able to try the same boat on the water in real conditions. But the opportunity for a deal and the lack of the same model at most dealers made me jump. Not the way I usually buy and not the advice I would give anyone! But then, do we ever take our own advice??? LOL

Love my Father-of-Zephyr
I have an old Dagger Meridian SK, which spawned the Zephyrs. It’s 16’, flat-bottomed and rockered. It’s also quite fast and very quick-turning.



Without using the skeg, it’s a boat that makes you concentrate to paddle straight. An inch of skeg gives enough tracking to behave nicely. It’s the only boat where I routinely use some skeg. That said, I love the quick feel of an easy turning boat like this. I’ve got paddled a Zephyr outdoors, but I think you will like it. The one time I got in one, it was great for rolling in the pool.



My Murrelet kit should arrive later this week. It should give me a quick-turner in wood.



Alan

Kansas
Kansas and rock gardens??? What about this doesn’t sound right?

Zephyr fan here…

– Last Updated: Nov-30-12 12:12 AM EST –

....Yeah. Totally. Someone else mentioned that you should check out the reviews and they are universally good. I gave the boat a low numerical score because I don't believe in the rating system and wanted folks to read my review which is very positive.

The Z is a great boat and it is a descendant of the Meridian which was a descendant of the Romany. A great bloodline. Think about it. Never paddled a Meridian but have paddled the Romany and I prefer the Z. So do my Romany-owning friends.

Read all of the reviews and ignore the numerical scores. Consider your weight and overall size. In my opinion the 15.5 is a boat for medium to large paddlers and the 16.0 is for really big boyz and girlz. There is no Z really designed for small paddlers. The 15.5 cockpit feels larger than the cockpit on the Tempest 170. IMO the T and the Z are very different boats for very different purposes.

For over two years I owned a Z15.5, a Pygmy Arctic Tern and a Tempest 170 Pro. The Z was always my first consideration and probably ended up as the boat I put on the roof of my car. I think that makes it a go-to boat, right?

Jon
http://3meterswell.blogspot.com

I agree
even the 15 Z will fit a big paddler. I am 5’10 240 and I fit in the 15 just fine - but the boat volume is not sufficient so I bought the 16.0 and it is extremely comfortable.

Nice Blog Jon!
Enjoyed reading it.

I travel year round for work
and only get home 1 weekend a month. Seasonal construction, so I see a lot of different water.

OK, need some advice
After one false start (used Zephyr arrived damaged), I ended up locating a new Zephyr 160 at a good price. But before taking posession of a new kayak I had never paddled, I was able to get a demo to try out. Good idea, because the demo didn’t make me very happy!



I tried it in flat water - no wind, no tide. The boat felt tippy the whole time, no matter how I adjusted my position and the fittings. I felt that I could muscle the boat around if needed, but that seemed like wasted energy. It never inspired confidence in me.



Though I’m used to a 10’ rec kayak, I have paddled several sea kayaks in this size before. A few felt tippy, but many felt more stable and did inspire confidence in paddling. Some were outright fun to paddle, in fact.



What I felt in that demo Zephyr does not at all match what the reviews keep saying about the boat.



What went wrong here? Any words of wisdom?

Depends on what you’re used to…
…a Z160,(big on me @ 155#'s), was my first kayak and it took me a bit before I could not feel tippy in it, couldn’t even sit in it without tipping over at first. It was good to me though, I learned to roll, edge, brace, surf ect. with it. The initial stability can feel tender especially if you’re used to boats with high I.S., though the secondary was very predictable for me from the get. The Z spoiled me for a feel that is a bit loose with a quickly firming secondary,(kind of the WS feel). My fleet now contains a tempest 165pro, zephyr 155 & alchemy 14S,(incidently the z160 now resides with a friend that thought it was really tippy when he first paddled it, but with a bit more skill & learning to edge it’s a favorite of his now). Without doubt and with less effort, the tempest is faster & the alchemy is quicker. In spite of this I regularly tour, surf & rock garden in the Z. It responds well and is very agile when put on side, not quick at all for flat spins though. You might want to look for a Z155 if you’re under 200#s, or if the alchemy did what you want it’s a good boat as well. Might give the Delphin 155 a look or maybe a North Shore Aspect if you liked the alchemy but need more room.



YMMV, t.george

10 ft vs. 16 ft - HUGE difference
If you are used to paddling a 10 footer, when you sit in a 16 footer that long boat will feel unresponsive and hard to turn and heavy. And it is! But, it is not meant to turn on a dime like the short boats, even the “well-tracking” recreational 10 footers are MUCH more maneuverable than the most maneuverable of 16 footers.



That said, I fully support what the others say. My first “real” kayak after a short recreational sit on top, was a WS Tsunami 145 - that thing felt tippy for the first few minutes. Then after a few weeks it was rock solid. Similarly, after I moved on from it to a 22" soft-chined (but still very stable, I now realized) 17 footer, I cursed myself for buying such an unstable boat - after a few months it was perfect for me.



I’ve owned the Zephyr 15.5 for a while and have paddle the 160 and the Tempests. Any of them is fine for a first-time paddler who wants to progress - very quickly that paddler will be comfortable in them. The alternative is to take a transitional boat like the Tsunami, then sell it after a few months like I did. Or stay with it if that’s where your limit is - depends on the person.



I now own the P&H Delphin 155. It has more solid initial stability than the Tempests and the secondary is probably similar. So it is more beginner-friendly from that prospective. And is also more maneuverable, so it is also easier to turn. I prefer that in moving water over the Tempests, but for flat water or textured water touring the Tempests are nicer.



I had a chance to paddle an F1, the skin on frame that is touted by some as a great playful boat based on the Mariner. Guess what - it felt like it tracked on rails compared to my P&H Delphin, despite the Delphin being about a foot longer in the water.



So, you really need to have some experience in different boats to appreciate why they are designed the way they are and which kind of boat fits your needs best. Then you need to find one of that kind that fits you well… And be ready to sell it once your skills/tastes change :wink:

New P&H Hammer
P&h is coming out with a new model called the Hammer. It looks awesome!

Being on edge

– Last Updated: Dec-20-12 9:46 AM EST –

The Zephyr does not need to be muscled around unless the paddler fails to put it on edge. That sentence alone says the issue was about your unwillingness to go on edge rather than the boat. Even if you are undersized for the Zephyr you had, once you haul your butt into the bilge to get it on edge the sense of having to muscle it around turns should diminish.

It is possible that the sea kayaks you have tried before included some number that were heavy duty trackers and/or big on you. If you are not comfortable on edge, and/or do not understand how a boat works that way, you would interpret the boat going over onto its edge as "tippiness" rather than understanding it is just settling onto a second quite stable point.

A more maneuverable boat may drop onto its edge more readily than a heavy duty tracker, for reasons ranging from the conditions to the paddler's own technique (or lack thereof). Remember that you are likely moving around and doing corrections more in a boat that is quite maneuverable - all of that will cause a reaction in the hull.

This is a normal issue for people coming from wide bargey boats into sea kayaks, especially one that likes to turn like the Zephyr. It just takes time, and often work on paddling strokes, to get around it.

Well maybe
Without being defensive, I’m not totally inexperienced with larger, narrower boats.



The Zephyr did indeed edge well. Almost too well, and maybe that was the problem that you describe. I didn’t have to muscle it to turn at all, just to stay straight, and there was NO wind or tide I was pushing against in that instance (closed canal system).



I was fully prepared for the initial stability to feel very different and tippy by comparison to my own boat. That wasn’t what bothered me. What got me uncomfortable was the inescapable feeling that I couldn’t keep the boat upright easily in the easiest conditions you can imagine. I didn’t feel that I could take my hands off my paddle for a second to adjust anything, pull off gloves, take a picture or anything else one should be able to do. That is simply a highly discomfiting situation and didn’t inspire confidence that it would change.



I’m on the borderline for 155 vs. 160 in the Zephyrs at 5’11" and 190 pounds. I can’t use a really tight cockpit, as I’m recovering from hip surgery and getting in becomes a problem, so the 160, given long legs, hip comfort and shoe size seemed the logical choice, as the 155 (tested only on the ground for entry) felt too confining, while the 160 did not. When I adjusted all the fittings I got more control in the 160, but it never felt like enough. BTW, I don’t like being shoehorned in for any length of time.



My prior brief tests on water of larger boats include: Alchemy 14L (delightful, quick and sufficiently stable, but very tight fit); Delsyk Nifty 430 (overall very comfortable and confidence inspiring, and stayed that way for 6 hours during lessons); 2 different Eddylines (all beautiful but tippier than I’d ever like); Looksha (felt like a barge, though stable); some others I cannot remember. They’re all pretty much the same width at beam, though the Alchemy & Delsyk are only 14’ long.



So I’m not fully convinced that it’s simply that I’m unused to the larger, narrower boats.

Sense of head room
Some boat and paddler combinations are so “on” that the paddler immediately gets a sense of the head room the boat provides in terms of staying upright and can relax, some are less so. The Alchemy is like the NDSK Romany in that regard, just about anyone can get into it and feel comfortable and relaxed. I don’t know the Delsyk boats, in the Eddylines that can be pretty model-specific.



You and the Zephyr appear to not be that kind of match, and that may just not be your boat. But it doesn’t mean that the boat was going to capsize in a heartbeat. It may mean that you need to spend time in more sea kayaks to expand your flexibility in getting to know a boat.



I say that from some experience. My short sea kayak is not a boat that was an instant intuitive match, at all. But she was so different from my other boat that I felt it was worth learning to paddle her. I was right about that, and by the second season this became my primary and favorite boat.

Try lifting one knee

– Last Updated: Dec-23-12 9:59 PM EST –

A lot of boats with some v in the hull are really hard to keep perfectly level. Even the some of the really stable sea kayaks are this way. All you need to do if lift one knee to calm the boat down. A little edge and the boat is stable on the edge. But with both knees up or both knees down it can be like balancing on a knife edge. Lots of really stable boats are like this. The most recent one I paddled like this was the Valley Gemini SP.