Another cold weather paddling question

7 mm is too thick
for paddling. Most will recommend 3 mm for occasional immersion and that will work fine for most people down to about 55F. I’ve worn a 3mm suit for ocean activities in SF and Monterey bay (and the coast south of Monterey) and it is fine, for me, anyway down to 55F or so.



Below that, a dry suit is preferable to a wetsuit since it allows more freedom of movement. I have a 7mm suit for SCUBA and it is not something I could sit or paddle in for any length of time. It resists motion and limits comfort if you try to bend it more than it really wants to. Bending these suits will, over time, degrade the suit. It will tend to compress, fold, and eventually crack if you try to force it into shapes it doesn’t really want to take.



Rick

Agree
One of these days I will take issue with Pblanc, but not on this.


  1. Cold water response if very individualized.
  2. People paddled cold water for years without dry or wetsuits. Precautions are necessary.



    My canoeing mentor was an old school guy named Roger Corbett. He paddled for 50 years, year round. I don’t think he ever wore a drysuit or wetsuit, but in winter, he picked his spots. He stayed off big waterways where a swim could possibly go on for a long time. He carried a huge drybag of back up clothes. I never did see him take a swim, but he made me put on stuff out of that drybag after I went swimming with the ice blocks, even though I didn’t feel like I needed to.



    I paddled for years with splash gear over polypro and polar tec. I took a few additional swims with ice blocks. If you are on a small stream, you can usually stand up or quickly swim over to the side and get out. I mention the splash gear because even though I would end up getting soaked, I think it acts much like a wet suit, and the water takes a minute to fully inundate the splash suit, so you don’t get that immediate shock. Plus, you don’t have ice water circulating through your clothes directly on your skin. I mention the polar tec because the threads do not absorb water and water literally falls out of the garmet minutes after a swim. If I was working hard, I wouldn’t even change clothes.



    Your paddling team is always important, but it can be critical in ice water. You may have to let your boat go so you can get out of the water, and if you do, there goes your dry clothes. So you have to be able to count on somebody helping you retrieve your boat, or loaning you their spare clothes until you get yours back.



    Like I mentioned, Roger carried a big bag. Part of the reason is to loan out to people on your team, because if they have a bad day it can ruin your day, too. Another reason is once you’ve used your spare gear, you have no back up, unless you have a second set. So after that first swim, you have to decide if you have enough redundancy to go on, or if it is hiking time.



    Anyway, you can paddle in cold conditions without the “necessary,” high cost stuff, but you need to take precautions and have a plan.



    All that said, a drysuit is a really, really, nice thing. I have one in extra large you can try to fix up if you want. It leaks somewhere. Aqua seal might be able to fix it. I replaced it and have been wondering what to do with it. I still fall out of my boat, and it is so nice to just be able to get back in the boat and resume paddling without having to regear.



    Last thing I will mention here is that they say the first thing to go in hypothermia situations is your judgement. I took swims and remember thinking, hey, this isn’t too bad. But then I’d ask myself, is that my judgement going, or am I really okay? And I’d usually decide to get the heck out of the water and think about it later. I’ve never figured out the answer.



    ~~Chip


Don’t forget head gear and plugs
A nice warm neo hood and ear plugs make a huge difference if you get your head wet. Ear plugs I also find very useful, even if I have a hood that covers my ears. Cold water in the ear could disorient you very dangerously and quickly plus it is said to cause surfer’s/swimmer’s/kayaker’s ear (bone growth in the ear canal that reduces its diameter and your hearing ability over time).



I paddled with a dry top and a 3mm farmer john suit recently because I had no other option. The water was not cold so that’s not the point. The point is that I thought I would feel contstrained and uncomfortable, but I did not. I felt very nice for the 6 hours or so I spent on the river and was glad I had the long legged neo suit on since the water splashing inside my kayak was pretty chilly. With long sleeves neo, I’m not sure how I would feel - never tried it, but I can imagine if the fit at your arm pits is not good you will hurt pretty soon, the rest of the suit is not a big deal, other than gettin sweaty.



With a good dry suit and if you are not paddling all out, you will be pretty much dry at the end of the day as the fabric breathes and vents enough to keep-up with moderate levels of effort. Plus, it is a lot easier to get in and out of my dry suit than from a 2-piece top/bottom and at the end of the day I don’t come out of it dripping wet and naked or nearly naked in the cold as I would be from a wet wet suit…

kayaking cl.1-4
with a bombproof roll you could get by with a drytop and wetsuit underneath. This subject of yours is an annual thing here in the northeast…and in the end, everybody I know wears a drysuit. No need to spend the grand, I find the pee zip option unnecessary, booties a must but they’re pretty much a standard these days.

Lots of good advice here
I agree with all of it. Even today, on an extended trip I often paddle in cold water with no wet or dry suit and even do lake crossings and the like. I am aware of the dangers and I do take precautions. My tolerance for rough water, white water, and wind, goes waaaaay down in that sort of situation because I understand that the risks are much much higher and I am literally taking my life in my hands. Also, and this may be the single most important thing I do, I try not to go out in these conditions without at least one other boat paddling with me. There is huge safety in numbers.

Wetsuit after a swim

– Last Updated: Nov-29-12 9:10 AM EST –

About the being up in air after a swim in a wetsuit - IMO you still need to have some solid wind blocking layers, a really good warm hood and good gloves for your hands to avoid dropping from hypothermia. Wool is still warm when wet, so feet are relatively easy to manage as long as you can stand the squishy feeling.

Cost can still add up. If it is a good enough wetsuit it'll be more than the basic Farmer John, and the cumulative cost might end up emulating the cost of a used drysuit. So price this all out and check with places like the Kayak Academy for used suits before you jump on anything.

This is based on my own experience. I tried going into the fall with layers of neoprene, probably cumulative 5 mill on my torso and 3 on my lower body, with a drytop, for rolling/aka swimming practice. I didn't quite have it down....

One session I got out of the water, wet from the swimming part of my practice, on a local pond wearing the above with temps dropping from the mid-60's to upper 50's and a brisk wind coming up from a storm that was blowing through. It took all of three minutes for my teeth to start chattering uncontrollably. I ran to the car parked nearby to start stripping and my hands were getting hard to manage before I was fully out of the dry top. I am not sure I could have gotten out of all those wet layers in time had I been in the open air rather than at least blocked from the wind in the car.

Granted I don't carry a lot of body fat when I am in shape - and I was at that point - but that moment got me looking at dry suits however I had to manage it. There is also the option of telling any family and friends to give you a gift certificate to the same place that sells them...

I figured
the responses I would get would be diverse. A little more info: I am 6’ 170 Lbs so fitting a suit for me is not a problem. I also ALWAYS paddle with at least one other paddler in cold temps. I have a small & a large dry bag as well. The issue is maybe having to hike it out several miles if things go bad-losing my boat & dry bag. Gotta plan for the worst. Or do I just avoid my favorite paddling spots & just make runs that are safer & a short hike if things go bad? Pick by battles?

thnk you very much!
I’m in the market and resisting the drysuit (have one, it doesn’t keep me from sweating).

you answered your own question.
Drysuit.

There’s a saying that is very true as well. One’s a witness, 2 are help.

My advice based on your bio…

Dry Top and Waders
You might want to consider a dry top and breathable neoprene stocking foot waders if you are looking for a cheaper option. I have been pairing my bib style waders with just the NRS Paddle boots and with all that neoprene down there your feet stay dry and warm in the water. I use two wading belts – one at my waist (mandatory to use) and one at the chest (might be overkill). Throw the jacket on over that and then a nice tight PFD. You end up with a lot of straps reducing the ability of water to enter.



I am not sure what type of kayaking you are doing but I mostly stick to canals, shallow streams, slow moving rivers and mellow lakes near shores. I don’t think I would want to do open water in waders or have to go for a 15 min swim but for water that isn’t very deep that you just stand up and walk out it works great and keeps you pretty dry.



This is good video comparing dry suits and dry top/waders:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtgYP3Xrhdo

bio. states cl.1-4 kayaking
anything 2 or over is what my opinion is based on. That long trek through the woods comes into play as well.

Ok, Individual Perhaps…

– Last Updated: Nov-29-12 2:13 PM EST –

how is it I am out in the break zone for 4-6 hours, getting hit with 30-40 degree water, along with 10-20 knot westerly offshore winds, with air temps down to 20 degrees (my limit, especially with 10 plus knot winds) and not get hypothermic from "evaporative cooling" of my wetsuit? How then would I get on-shore to walk maybe a mile or two (which I have done) and then succumb to the same evaporative cooling? Ain't happened yet in 6 plus years of post nor'easter paddle surfing.

I may not have the most time in winter paddling experience but I wager I am among the top 20 percentile in the P-Net universe -- Mostly in my wetsuit.

Maybe I am the outlier (in P-Net but certainly not in the northeast surfing universe)...


sing

I’ve seen it.
I’ve paddled around wearing a wetsuit feeling just fine, got out at a rest landing and became pretty cold when there is a wind. I don’t get the same level of effect wearing a drysuit. I’m sure if you exercise enough (walking rather than resting) or have any form of wind break you won’t notice it so much. And if your wetsuit is VERY warm then you may get cooler but still warm enough not to mind.

And, The Flip Side…

– Last Updated: Nov-29-12 3:24 PM EST –

the exact last day I wore my drysuit - Dec, 2015:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1528182455043300790qgpfFL

I was wearing my kokatat Meridian, with polypro base top and bottom and a micro fleece pullover. Sunny but breezy, post nor'easter day. Surfing a break about a mile away from the car. After a couple of hours of surfing, I took a break with my buddy (who incidentally was in a wetsuit) and after talking a bit, I felt chilled because I was thoroughly soaked from sweat in my "drysuit." Never fully recovered from the chilled feeling after the break. Instead, I hiked back to the car and called it a day.

My previously unquestioned belief in P-Net drysuit dogma ended on that day. Went with wetsuits ever since and my two drysuits hang in the basement. Given that I only paddle when the conditions are "interesting" -- which in the northeast -- is usually in the winter, I think I would have had more opportunity than most in P-Net to fall victim to hypothermia from dreaded "evaporative cooling" of my wetsuit.

Again, I am not making a blanket statement FOR wetsuits over drysuits. More nuanced based on skills and venue -which is why I increasingly tend to not want any part of these discussions.) However, I don't agree with those who go the other way and deem wetsuits as somehow a less costly "comprise" of sorts (for risk ignorant paddlers) when it fact, for some, like me, wetsuits are by far a better and more appropriate solution.

sing

Yup, it is very much so

– Last Updated: Nov-30-12 6:51 AM EST –

But I bet it was December of 2005.

We paddle with a couple of guys who can walk around at least for a bit in a wet wetsuit at air temps down into the high 40's. What I have to wear is too much for comfort for these guys. My husband has typically been more tolerant of cold than me, but less so than these guys. I have paddled with others with no more tolerance than me, of both genders.

And by the way, that was not the first time in my life I have been hypothermic in moderate temperatures. I got it handled faster that day than the other two times though, happily.

That is why I tend to be so conservative in my recommendations. Until someone knows what is "cold" to them, the worst that happens with something like a dry suit is that you sweat a lot and smell pretty rank at the bar afterwards or undergo an uncomfortable but usually (always someone will be the exception) non-fatal chill. I have had a couple of those. But I can handle the sweat with a change of clothing in the car afterwards, and the chill with some more aerobic motion to warm up. The onset of hypothermia in that wetsuit, even with a drytop, came on too fast to afford me the kind of time I would have in an uncomfortable dry suit scenario.

What conditions?
You really didn’t say what conditions you’re paddling in and the likelihood of a capsize or a wet exit. Can you roll?



Celia was right on the money. I’ve been with paddlers who capsized in 40 degree water with a farmer john and drytop and in no time they were shaking. I always hear these stories of people in light weight wet suits on surf boards all day long and I can only say, I don’t know how they do it or it’s a lot more aerobic than it looks.



A wet suit will prevent cold shock but anything heavy enough to give you long term protection will be miserable to paddle in. I’m a ex-scuba diver and my cold water dives were less than an hour and then you get out of the wetsuit and into dry clothes in a warm car.



If the waters you paddle in are fairly tame, you could get away with a wetsuit to get to shore but you’ll have to immediately change into dry clothes (plenty) for the walk back and some heat packs just in case.



Look up cold shock. It can stop you from breathing. Look it up. It’s very serious.

AgreeWith This…

– Last Updated: Nov-29-12 3:47 PM EST –

"I always hear these stories of people in light weight wet suits on surf boards all day long and I can only say, I don't know how they do it or it's a lot more aerobic than it looks."

Yes. Paddling out past the break zone and paddling to catch a wave is both aerobic and anaerobic. The demand steepens exponentially with wave size. As a group, surfers are in far better shape than most paddlers I have met or paddled with.

(Okay. I'll qualified by saying the group of local "cored" surfers at my homebreak who surf year round but especially enjoy winter storm surfing. It's a self select group who can be counted to show up individually almost always after each winter storm.)

sing

Its nothing to fool with that is for sur
e. I did once get a good solid touch of hypothermia that scared me and I am more cautious now. It was summer. But it was in the arctic. On the Clarke river. It went from 75 degrees and gorgeous calm weather to sleet and freezing rain and winds I’m guessing in the 35 mph range. I got damp trying to keep our tarp up and a fire going. All of a sudden I realized I was shivering and could not stop. I dove into my tent stripped off all my clothes and got into my very warm down bag. Took hours but I did warm up. It was the first or second night of my first trip in the arctic. I was worried perhaps I had bitten off more than I could chew. We were 500 miles from the nearest human being. It dawned on my that the only thing between me and death was my tent and my bag. Thankfully I had a very good tent and bag, and they both held up well. No trees to tie to or to break the wind. Tent was being held down by boulders on the corners. Rattled to beat the band all night long. I remember thinking for a while that we might be in very serious trouble. But, the next day the weather broke and we had a glorious two weeks on the Thelon catching big grayling and trout and watching all sorts of wildlife. I’ll never forget that trip.

Sing
Any idea on a good surf hood? Been getting flushed with a mystery skin cap, starting to get the ice cream headache.



Got out today, some pretty nice little waves, hope some more come in…

Dry vs. Wet (suit)

– Last Updated: Dec-01-12 9:59 AM EST –

I must agree that in a good (meaning well-breathing) dry suit, the evaporative cooling effect is pretty strong. But *only* when you are soaking wet *inside* from sweating. If you are dry inside, there is virtully no issue. With a thick wet suit, you will sweat hard but you won't cool off either. You will sweat a lot in a dry suit too and you will cool off a lot when you finish. A non-breathing dry suit will work just like wet suit in terms of sweating you and not cooling you when you stop (of course, with the right layers assumed in both cases).

So, I must conclude, that if you stop active movement when soaking wet, a thick wet suit would be the better choice to keep you warm. Plus, leaks while in immersed in the water with a losely fitting dry suit can be a real trouble....

That said, for the kind of paddling I do most in the winter, a dry suit is better/easier to get in and out (in fact, I put it on at home, drive, paddle, wear it in the car back home - so pretty easy...