Kayaking in really cold water

I hope Toller comes back and posts
his game plan after he has thought it out. Otherwise this conversation, while well meaning, is one sided.



It would be nice to know if our advice had any affect. If the decision is not to paddle that is fine.

At this time
I don’t even know if I CAN paddle this winter. If the shore freezes, I won’t even be able to get to the water, so the whole thing is academic. Launching from the ice seems a bit dicey. I will have to see how it goes.



A few years back I bought a canoe in February and had to try it out. The only open water was a large creek that flowed too fast to freeze over. I took the canoe out, dressed wholly inappropriately, and immediately capsized. I took the time to save the canoe and the paddle and ran home. It was a horrible experience that I hope not to go through again, but it was a huge distance from a Darwin Award!



Changing the question a bit, the water is now 46*. How deadly do you figure that is; bearing in mind that I will be in 4’ of water 80’ from shore.

Depth isn’t that big a factor
It’s the temperature. While it is unikely that you’ll be capsized irrecoverably in 4" of water, you’ll still be wet. If you get back into the boat and have a wet or drysuit on, you’ll probably be fine, unless:


  • you are wearing cotton in contact with your skin - it will not warm up and will sap your body of warmth and energy
  • you are injured in some way - many lakes have rocks and in shallow water such as this, striking one’s head is a real possibility
  • you capsize in deeper water (a hole, soft muddy bottom) and are fully wet with the added problem of having to re-enter the kayak
  • the kayak fails in some way (which can happen, though it is an admittedly rare event)



    The key here is that if you are not dressed for immersion, you are at risk. You sound a tad hardier than most and can tolerate the cold more than others may, but that does not mean one’s tolerance can’t be exceeded.



    If you want to know whether you can stand being in the water, the best option is to test it. Full immersion in whatever gear you use and then make the call as to how much risk you wish to take. I do this whenever I teach someone to kayak. I put them in the water and have them splash around a bit. If they can’t take the temperature, we adjust the gear and make recommendations.



    It’s a wet sport and is, I feel, as much about getting wet at times as it is keeping the boat on an even keel (so to speak, since kayaking is not about keeping the keel parallel to the bottom).



    The last thing I want to see is someone getting injured because they didn’t take reasonable precautions (either due to a lack of knowledge or an excess of arrogance). However, if you intend to paddle in water below 50 degrees, you should be informed what to expect. Read the following:



    http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm



    Note that these are survival times (30 minutes max. in sub 50F water). Sea Kayaker did these tests with experienced sea kayakers and found that many of them were so cold in sub 50F water that they pretty much lost the use of hands in as little as 5 minutes. If one is so cold they cannot re-enter the kayak and paddle, the issue becomes one of whether or not the paddler can be found within such short timeframes.



    Rick

Honestly - swim it

– Last Updated: Dec-10-12 12:15 PM EST –

We can't decide for you, only provide advice.

I actually ran experiments, with various clothing on.
Waded into the water till I was floating,
hung around a few minutes, then returned to my apartment.
My neighbors thought I was crazy, they were right :-)
One neighbor insisted I tether myself to a tree,
so I tied two throw bags together for 100 ft of line.

It's damn tough to swim the first 30 seconds
when all muscles clench the body into fetal position
in an attempt to preserve heat at the core.
Dunking head under water - filling that wetsuit full -
not fun at all, the first few seconds, but it can be done.

Wind whipping over a wet body as you get out
can be a huge kick-in-the-rear as well.

A simple cheap digital fever thermometer can easily
show you if that core temp dropped a few tenths of a degree.

Fear can be overcome by understanding and learning.
Controlling fear/panic is crucial to survival.

you will find

– Last Updated: Dec-10-12 12:17 PM EST –

a drysuit opens up a whole new world of paddling. My first time wearing a drysuit on my local run, I swam 20 minutes into the run. First thought was "wow, I'm warm...and dry." Level was high, cl. 2 pushing cl. 3, a run I was paddling with sneak routes and trepidation previously in cold weather/water. A bit later my buddy also ended up swimming. At the takeout we both laughed about our "losing it"....and did another run. Winter turned into my favorite season after that.
I use a $500 NRS, as do several friends. I'm usually paddling a canoe that cost nothing/ $300. Safety is more important than a new boat.

For myself
I am pretty confident that I could get back on shore from 46 degree water if I had to wet exit a kayak 80’ off shore, but I would be pretty miserable.



I can tolerate exposure to water of that temperature dramatically better than I can water of 35 degrees or less. But you might be different.

Depth seems to be allowing open water
Four feet deep ought to have ice on it. Is your lake one of the Finger Lakes where temps are indeed milder as its ?



If you can stay close to shore and dump, you will lose your finger dexterity first. That may mean that even within 80 feet, shunting of blood from your extremities to your core can lead to a loss of being able to use your fingers and feet normally.



So try to keep those warm. Remember, forget your boat. Get yourself out first.



Your specific question of 46 degrees being deadly is hard to answer. That is in some places our normal summertime paddling water temp. I have seen a person totally incapacitated in that water and require hospitalization. I cant tell you if that is a common response or not.



I dump in 33 degree water. I do wear a drysuit and I think head protection is paramount too. I wear an ugly fleece lined neoprene skull cap to prevent heat loss. Your head loses a disproportiate amount of heat.

Every winter we lose a few
Here in Washington the water temp drops to 38-40. Every winter a few people die on the big lake next to seattle. Universally they are in a ‘stable’ boat and not dressed for immersion. Many die on relatively calm day. Every Jan 1 a friend of mine does a dress for immersion ‘polar plunge’. He invites people to float for 20 mins in the lake in their chosen kayaking gear. I imagine there is small spike in sales of drysuits and pile after these sessions.

Same as before…
walk/swim 80 along the shore - but no 80 feet out - with a change of clothing, a car with a good heater and preferably a friend nearby.



You lose body heat 25 times faster in water than in air. Colder is worse - whether it be colder water, colder air, more wind chill or a combination thereof.



The bottom line is that you are hearing from people who have found out by personal experience what temperatures start getting dangerous for them. You are talking about temps that are within that range for some, or colder in my case.



You are getting good advice to avoid paddling as things get colder without some solid experimentation to see what is safe for you. You should be embarking on that, rather than trying to get a magic number at which folks here will advise you it is safe to paddle.

Sidenote to all

– Last Updated: Dec-10-12 2:36 PM EST –

Coast Guard and SAR teams rescues humans, not kayaks.
- be prepared to loose your kayak and ALL gear.
They will not "tow it" via boat or "lift it" via helicopter.
If the wind blows it away from shore, they will not chase it.

Tagging your boat and equipment/gear might be a good idea;
any time of year, to increase chances of recovery.

Personal ID - on your body - also a good idea - all year playing outside.
http://www.roadid.com/p/the-Ankle-ID






get in the water

– Last Updated: Dec-10-12 2:36 PM EST –

I agree with Willi. Get in the water with someone nearby ready to help, and try it out.

Comfort is a pretty relative term when you're discussing comfort of a dry wetsuit vs. comfort of cold clothing. And once you're in the water your strength fades quickly. I can guarantee you the choice will be made for you once you've spent some time in cold water with and without a wetsuit or drysuit, and some time warming up afterwards.

I think if you're planning on learning anything in a boat more capable than you are right now, you ought to plan on getting wet. Which means preparing as if you're going to get wet. In conditions that kayak would be easy to capsize. And if nothing else, wear one for the people on shore who care about you.

no one can answer
"how deadly"



On the face of it a ridiculous question. Not meant as a slam. You seem to be searching for some kind of ‘go ahead and do it, no problem’ answer from ppl who are relating good bio science and actual experience w. hypothermia and its effects.



Go and try it for yourself with whatever you plan paddling in. Don’t go too far from shore: 20 feet at most. Capsize and fully immerse, head and all. See how prone you are to gasp reflex. Stay in the water at least 10 minutes. See how that affects your mobility and awareness. Try to get back in your boat. Do have a witness/friend with the ability to warm you up.



This way you can answer it for yourself. Lots of people here have given your answers based on experience and scientific data re hypothermia and its effects. If you want anything more specific then it needs to get specific to you and your paddling venue - and there’s only one way to get to that.

Hypothermia
I’ve seen two paddlers in the initial stages of hypothermia in August in TN on 80+ degree days. The Hiwassee has water temps in the 50s and the weather was overcast with a stiff wind. Both were uncontrollably shivering and probably less than 5 minutes from being in real trouble if they had stayed in the water. One had taken a 3-5 minute swim and the other had a loose wetsuit for a self rescue class where you were in the water intermittently.



Again, that was 80 degree weather in TN in August.



If you can’t warm back up quickly things can go bad in a hurry.



Jim

Just lost one to 56 degree water
Here in Jordan lake the water temp is already down to 56. A man lost his life swimming out to a boat that had drifted from shore. I wear a wetsuit starting at 70 degree water and the water here gets into the 40’s.



I had a six month old dry suit have multiple failures in the 1990’s and I’ve not worn one since without a wet suit underneath. The dry suit is really great until it leaks and then it is pretty deadly. Watch those Gaskets, you do not know how long the suit has been on the rack at the store and for some folks the gaskets only last a season.

Sad…
Too bad about the recent death while trying to catch a floating boat. Note that it is rare than you will be able to catch up to a wind blown object since the max speed of good swimmers is well under 5 mph.



Once wind gets hold of a boat (or other object) and starts moving it, it quickly will exceed the swim speed of most. I lost a friend in high school who tried to chase a wind blown volleyball and have since seen this type of event several times.



As for temperatures, it is really a good thing to test what you can stand. The ocean off N. Ca. reaches a high near 62 or so in winter and is usually closer to 55 for the rest of the year. An hour in that is more than most can stand. I’ve been in colder water, and have even been able to swim for short periods in temps down to about 50 without a wetsuit, but it is REALLY not pleasant and I’ve only done this on really hot days.



A lot of this is predicated on knowing one’s limits and I don’t think that sub 50 F water should be approached without knowing what you can stand, how long you can stand it, and how quickly you lose physical skills due to hypothermia (and note that the brain is affected more quickly than the body and it is very difficult to exercise good judgement in such conditions).



Rick

Again, I appreciate all your advice, but
"Go and try it for yourself with whatever you plan paddling in. Don’t go too far from shore: 20 feet at most. Capsize and fully immerse, head and all. See how prone you are to gasp reflex. Stay in the water at least 10 minutes. See how that affects your mobility and awareness. Try to get back in your boat. Do have a witness/friend with the ability to warm you up."



As I have mentioned:

  1. 100’ out is about 4’ deep. 20’ out would be barely up to my knees, so I don’t think I want to capsize there. (my dock is 60’ long and the water is 34" deep at the end. I haven’t measured out further, but I can see the bottom very clearly, so it can’t be very deep.)
  2. I have been submerged in water with ice on it (when the air temperature was 20) and while I don’t like it, there was no gasp reflex (I suppose I should check to see what that is), and I immediately swam after my canoe and paddle and got them to shore; so there was no noticeable loss of mobility or awareness.
  3. 10 minutes? No, I expect I probably would die after 10 minutes. But since I will only be in 3 or 4 feet of water and it won’t take more than a couple minutes max to get to shore, I won’t be worrying about what will happen in ten minutes.
  4. Trying to get back in my boat in 4’ of water seems pretty silly. Perhaps that is why it would take 10 minutes?

Gasp Reflex …
“I have been submerged in water with ice on it (when the air temperature was 20) and while I don’t like it, there was no gasp reflex (I suppose I should check to see what that is”



Yes you should check into the gasp reflex because that is what kills most people in cold water. It’s a reflex when instantly immersed in very cold water. A lot of experiments have been done and it’s pretty unusual not to have any gasp reflex without pre-conditioning even at much higher temperatures than water near the freezing point.



I would be willing to bet if I capsized you in your boat in your skirt in 33 F water you would have one hell of a panicked gasp reflex. It does not matter if the water is 3 Ft deep you can still drown if you aspirate a little bit. At the very least buy a wetsuit and a hood. And if you don’t believe the people posting here. Go do a test with someone nearby to help.

I’m out…next, please on P.Net

good insulation
between your ears.



I’m out.



You’ll figure it out one way or the other.

You aren’t getting what is being said

– Last Updated: Dec-11-12 8:32 AM EST –

You are assuming just a few minutes to walk 100 ft thru extremely chilly water - I live upstate so I know you are talking sub-40 degree water by another couple of weeks of overnight temps in the 20's. That is probably a very good estimate for when the water is warm.

It is not a reliable estimate for when the water is 38 degrees if you have remotely close to my own tolerance - your legs and balance could stop serving you well before you made it to shore in anything less than clothing for immersion. Or if you did make it to shore, you would be unable to help yourself. You are talking about skipping even a wetsuit. In fact trying to re-enter the boat from that 4 or 5 ft of water, a very basic paddling skill which I get the impression you don't have, would take less time thus be safer if executed well. The idea in very cold water is to get out of it as fast as possible. Wading 100 ft to shore is not that.

So far you have expressed a paddling background that finds 2.5 waves challenging and seems focused on swimming or walking out of a capsize rather than handling the issue on the water some way that is faster (thus safer). You are not at a safe point to be paddling alone in dicey weather conditions, and certainly not to assume you can't capsize that boat. You are unlikely to get approval from anyone here for this idea.