Rocker touring Kayak question

10 ft vs. 16 ft - HUGE difference
If you are used to paddling a 10 footer, when you sit in a 16 footer that long boat will feel unresponsive and hard to turn and heavy. And it is! But, it is not meant to turn on a dime like the short boats, even the “well-tracking” recreational 10 footers are MUCH more maneuverable than the most maneuverable of 16 footers.



That said, I fully support what the others say. My first “real” kayak after a short recreational sit on top, was a WS Tsunami 145 - that thing felt tippy for the first few minutes. Then after a few weeks it was rock solid. Similarly, after I moved on from it to a 22" soft-chined (but still very stable, I now realized) 17 footer, I cursed myself for buying such an unstable boat - after a few months it was perfect for me.



I’ve owned the Zephyr 15.5 for a while and have paddle the 160 and the Tempests. Any of them is fine for a first-time paddler who wants to progress - very quickly that paddler will be comfortable in them. The alternative is to take a transitional boat like the Tsunami, then sell it after a few months like I did. Or stay with it if that’s where your limit is - depends on the person.



I now own the P&H Delphin 155. It has more solid initial stability than the Tempests and the secondary is probably similar. So it is more beginner-friendly from that prospective. And is also more maneuverable, so it is also easier to turn. I prefer that in moving water over the Tempests, but for flat water or textured water touring the Tempests are nicer.



I had a chance to paddle an F1, the skin on frame that is touted by some as a great playful boat based on the Mariner. Guess what - it felt like it tracked on rails compared to my P&H Delphin, despite the Delphin being about a foot longer in the water.



So, you really need to have some experience in different boats to appreciate why they are designed the way they are and which kind of boat fits your needs best. Then you need to find one of that kind that fits you well… And be ready to sell it once your skills/tastes change :wink:

New P&H Hammer
P&h is coming out with a new model called the Hammer. It looks awesome!

Being on edge

– Last Updated: Dec-20-12 9:46 AM EST –

The Zephyr does not need to be muscled around unless the paddler fails to put it on edge. That sentence alone says the issue was about your unwillingness to go on edge rather than the boat. Even if you are undersized for the Zephyr you had, once you haul your butt into the bilge to get it on edge the sense of having to muscle it around turns should diminish.

It is possible that the sea kayaks you have tried before included some number that were heavy duty trackers and/or big on you. If you are not comfortable on edge, and/or do not understand how a boat works that way, you would interpret the boat going over onto its edge as "tippiness" rather than understanding it is just settling onto a second quite stable point.

A more maneuverable boat may drop onto its edge more readily than a heavy duty tracker, for reasons ranging from the conditions to the paddler's own technique (or lack thereof). Remember that you are likely moving around and doing corrections more in a boat that is quite maneuverable - all of that will cause a reaction in the hull.

This is a normal issue for people coming from wide bargey boats into sea kayaks, especially one that likes to turn like the Zephyr. It just takes time, and often work on paddling strokes, to get around it.

Well maybe
Without being defensive, I’m not totally inexperienced with larger, narrower boats.



The Zephyr did indeed edge well. Almost too well, and maybe that was the problem that you describe. I didn’t have to muscle it to turn at all, just to stay straight, and there was NO wind or tide I was pushing against in that instance (closed canal system).



I was fully prepared for the initial stability to feel very different and tippy by comparison to my own boat. That wasn’t what bothered me. What got me uncomfortable was the inescapable feeling that I couldn’t keep the boat upright easily in the easiest conditions you can imagine. I didn’t feel that I could take my hands off my paddle for a second to adjust anything, pull off gloves, take a picture or anything else one should be able to do. That is simply a highly discomfiting situation and didn’t inspire confidence that it would change.



I’m on the borderline for 155 vs. 160 in the Zephyrs at 5’11" and 190 pounds. I can’t use a really tight cockpit, as I’m recovering from hip surgery and getting in becomes a problem, so the 160, given long legs, hip comfort and shoe size seemed the logical choice, as the 155 (tested only on the ground for entry) felt too confining, while the 160 did not. When I adjusted all the fittings I got more control in the 160, but it never felt like enough. BTW, I don’t like being shoehorned in for any length of time.



My prior brief tests on water of larger boats include: Alchemy 14L (delightful, quick and sufficiently stable, but very tight fit); Delsyk Nifty 430 (overall very comfortable and confidence inspiring, and stayed that way for 6 hours during lessons); 2 different Eddylines (all beautiful but tippier than I’d ever like); Looksha (felt like a barge, though stable); some others I cannot remember. They’re all pretty much the same width at beam, though the Alchemy & Delsyk are only 14’ long.



So I’m not fully convinced that it’s simply that I’m unused to the larger, narrower boats.

Sense of head room
Some boat and paddler combinations are so “on” that the paddler immediately gets a sense of the head room the boat provides in terms of staying upright and can relax, some are less so. The Alchemy is like the NDSK Romany in that regard, just about anyone can get into it and feel comfortable and relaxed. I don’t know the Delsyk boats, in the Eddylines that can be pretty model-specific.



You and the Zephyr appear to not be that kind of match, and that may just not be your boat. But it doesn’t mean that the boat was going to capsize in a heartbeat. It may mean that you need to spend time in more sea kayaks to expand your flexibility in getting to know a boat.



I say that from some experience. My short sea kayak is not a boat that was an instant intuitive match, at all. But she was so different from my other boat that I felt it was worth learning to paddle her. I was right about that, and by the second season this became my primary and favorite boat.

Try lifting one knee

– Last Updated: Dec-23-12 9:59 PM EST –

A lot of boats with some v in the hull are really hard to keep perfectly level. Even the some of the really stable sea kayaks are this way. All you need to do if lift one knee to calm the boat down. A little edge and the boat is stable on the edge. But with both knees up or both knees down it can be like balancing on a knife edge. Lots of really stable boats are like this. The most recent one I paddled like this was the Valley Gemini SP.

That’s interesting
But then, how do you do it when you’re paddling actively? Sounds like a neat trick when standing still, though.

See this …

– Last Updated: Dec-20-12 9:23 PM EST –

http://youtu.be/wTp4TqqqHIA
http://youtu.be/JVf7CZ82WDU

This is me in the 15.5. Quite manageable if you ask me -;), even though at that time I was still relatively new to white water and you can tell I'm not paddling that well.

I'm taller than you at 6'4" but similar weight at 185 lb or so. You are right that the boat does feel shaky from side to side. I paddled the 16.0 in the same rapids as you see on the video with the 15.5 and I did not see much difference between the two - the 15.5 was a bit more maneuverable and a bit narrower, which I liked better for these conditions. I also paddled the Tempest 165 in the exact same rapids and that is different too - more stable in terms of initial stability (less wobbly) but less final stability too.

Try the Delphin or a Cetus MV - you will like these better from what I read. They have solid primary stability and good secondary. Although if you do feel the Zephyr too tippy, I would think you probably need to stick for now with 24" wide boats like the Tsunami 140 or 160 - they are more stable and probably a bigger cockpit for your preferences there (too big for mine).

You are clearly
Handling ocean swells and rapids very well! Beyond my current skills.


More info
Celia, I appreciate what you’re saying.



What bothered me about the Z was that I didn’t feel as though I wanted to spend the time to learn the Zephyr better. That was a huge surprise. That side to side sense of instability was what got to me. I realize it doesn’t mean that it was actually going to capsize. It was nerve wracking to me and it felt as though I was having to expend too much energy dealing with that, rather than simply going forward.



As you noted, the Alchemy was an instant hit/fit, and it’s unfortunate that it was too tight a fit for me. So was the Delsyk 430(not a commonly available boat), and that wasn’t too tight for me. Both are shorter boats (14’), and maybe that’s where I need to be right now. I’m more certain that I am probably not ready for a 22" wide boat at this point.



What “short” boat are you now using that you like so much?



Could I have just had a bad day? Certainly. Could it be that I’m not the same as I was before surgery? Certainly. I’d posit many possible factors. I’m just going to have to test out more boats on the water after all, it seems. Which will probably mean at least one more water session with a Zephyr, maybe the 155 next time.

did you try just relaxing?
>> It was nerve wracking to me and it felt as though I was having to expend too much energy dealing with that, rather than simply going forward.



Relax and let your hips swivel. Let the boat and water do their thing, while your torso stays upright.

Yes.

P&H Vela
Smaller persons boat, 15’8" long, older design. Very short for a full sea kayak in its era. Not a terribly popular boat, never was. But it is a spritely little thing.



(Sorry, I put this reply in the wrong spot this morning. What happens when you try and do this on a cell phone…)

Surprised.
I have to say I am surprised by the feeling of insecurity you describe in the Zephyr. My experience is almost the exact opposite. I find the Zephyr to be very stable and relaxing to paddle. I’m not sure I completely understand why you have that feeling. The question I think is whether that is a feeling that will go away for you with time in the seat. I think it will, but I suppose one never knows. Just out of curiosity, what kind of paddling have you done in your life and what are your paddling goals looking ahead the next 4-5 years?

This is for bartc, yes?
I think you came in one indent more than you intended.

Indent
Yes. I can’t ever seem to get the right indent. Computer challenged.

OK
The assumption I started with was yours: “…whether that is a feeling that will go away …with time…” But it didn’t feel that way at all. I’m sort of in line with the Kayak Academy’s recommendations regarding intermediate paddlers choosing a sea kayak, when it comes to that. If you can’t feel comfortable on flat water sitting still without holding the paddle, it might not keep you in the seat to want to paddle enough to learn.



I’ve been paddling kayaks now continuously for about 2 years. Had paddled canoes, various rowboats, and an occasional kayak many years before that. Past 2 years have included mostly slough paddling in SF Bay Area, but some lessons in sheltered ocean harbor. I am a strong paddler with lower intermediate level experience overall. I can usually keep up with or even lead the longer sea kayaks in the sloughs, but when the wind and tide kick up significantly, then the boat reaches its limits.



My goals were to learn to roll, learn to handle bay and some light ocean paddling. I would like to try more of that open water paddling as I gain experience, and take short day trips. No desire to do expeditions, kayak camping, heavy ocean crossings, racing, nor whitewater. Not sure about surfing or rock gardening; might try the former with lessons, latter is unlikely.



So it’s pretty basically going up from rec kayaking to some serious stuff, but not gnarly stuff, for day tripping. And I will not get the opportunity to buy up again, so this purchase needs to fit most situations for years to come.

Ever go into a bicycle shop?
And try an expensive bike. They all have two wheels and many the same gears, yet one or two just feel great. Of course they are always more expensive.



Human powered craft shows small tiny differences because we are so in touch with it. You have to try boats, literally. Try friends boats and see how things feel for you. Paddlers are never really satisfied simply because the water conditions are always different and each boat does things a little better in each condition. I’ve been in highly recommended boats that a lot of people like and really didn’t like them that much. So, the answer is to have lots of them. Or… just be more acceptive with them.

Really different boats
When I take out a rounded bottom or soft chined boat versus a hard chined boat I have a few minutes of getting used to changing how aggressivly I can edge to boat. Once you get used to a hard chined boat you may like the way it “locks in” while leaned over. I find it comforting to have the secondary stability with a hard chined boat. I have rolled over many more times in soft chined boats (not meaning to) by not having the more defined limit of secondary stability.

One way I think of it is a rounded hull rolls with your hips, a sharper boat “clicks”.

similar zephyr disappointment
When I was looking for new boat this fall I was looking seriously at a zephyr 155 after hearing everyone on here rant and rave about them. I was looking for a sportier touring boat that I could expand my skill set in after deciding that the inukshuk that I had was kinda like driving grandma’s mini-van, especially for someone my size (5’8",115lbs). I scoured this site looking for suggestions and advice on which boats I should be looking at in order to compile a sort list, and it looked like the zephyr was going to be the clear choice, until I test paddled it. Don’t get me wrong, it does have some great features - like that seat that adjusts every way you could possibly think of. I didn’t have a problem with stability at all but I found it very slow and sluggish. I tried quite a few boats that day, some were eliminated as soon as I sat in them (necky eliza), and the short list was quickly reduced to two boats after paddling, the valley avocet rm, and the boreal design baffin p100. Both were quick, playful skeg boats that turned nicely and tracked well even in a cross wind. It was a tough decision between the final two, but I went with the baffin, I liked the seat better in the baffin and it edged really nicely. I would have been very disappointed if I had just gone with what everyone on here was saying and ordered a zephyr from the local outfitters.