A lot of boats with some v in the hull are really hard to keep perfectly level. Even the some of the really stable sea kayaks are this way. All you need to do if lift one knee to calm the boat down. A little edge and the boat is stable on the edge. But with both knees up or both knees down it can be like balancing on a knife edge. Lots of really stable boats are like this. The most recent one I paddled like this was the Valley Gemini SP.
This is me in the 15.5. Quite manageable if you ask me -;), even though at that time I was still relatively new to white water and you can tell I'm not paddling that well.
I'm taller than you at 6'4" but similar weight at 185 lb or so. You are right that the boat does feel shaky from side to side. I paddled the 16.0 in the same rapids as you see on the video with the 15.5 and I did not see much difference between the two - the 15.5 was a bit more maneuverable and a bit narrower, which I liked better for these conditions. I also paddled the Tempest 165 in the exact same rapids and that is different too - more stable in terms of initial stability (less wobbly) but less final stability too.
Try the Delphin or a Cetus MV - you will like these better from what I read. They have solid primary stability and good secondary. Although if you do feel the Zephyr too tippy, I would think you probably need to stick for now with 24" wide boats like the Tsunami 140 or 160 - they are more stable and probably a bigger cockpit for your preferences there (too big for mine).
What bothered me about the Z was that I didn’t feel as though I wanted to spend the time to learn the Zephyr better. That was a huge surprise. That side to side sense of instability was what got to me. I realize it doesn’t mean that it was actually going to capsize. It was nerve wracking to me and it felt as though I was having to expend too much energy dealing with that, rather than simply going forward.
As you noted, the Alchemy was an instant hit/fit, and it’s unfortunate that it was too tight a fit for me. So was the Delsyk 430(not a commonly available boat), and that wasn’t too tight for me. Both are shorter boats (14’), and maybe that’s where I need to be right now. I’m more certain that I am probably not ready for a 22" wide boat at this point.
What “short” boat are you now using that you like so much?
Could I have just had a bad day? Certainly. Could it be that I’m not the same as I was before surgery? Certainly. I’d posit many possible factors. I’m just going to have to test out more boats on the water after all, it seems. Which will probably mean at least one more water session with a Zephyr, maybe the 155 next time.
did you try just relaxing? >> It was nerve wracking to me and it felt as though I was having to expend too much energy dealing with that, rather than simply going forward.
Relax and let your hips swivel. Let the boat and water do their thing, while your torso stays upright.
P&H Vela Smaller persons boat, 15’8" long, older design. Very short for a full sea kayak in its era. Not a terribly popular boat, never was. But it is a spritely little thing.
(Sorry, I put this reply in the wrong spot this morning. What happens when you try and do this on a cell phone…)
Surprised. I have to say I am surprised by the feeling of insecurity you describe in the Zephyr. My experience is almost the exact opposite. I find the Zephyr to be very stable and relaxing to paddle. I’m not sure I completely understand why you have that feeling. The question I think is whether that is a feeling that will go away for you with time in the seat. I think it will, but I suppose one never knows. Just out of curiosity, what kind of paddling have you done in your life and what are your paddling goals looking ahead the next 4-5 years?
OK The assumption I started with was yours: “…whether that is a feeling that will go away …with time…” But it didn’t feel that way at all. I’m sort of in line with the Kayak Academy’s recommendations regarding intermediate paddlers choosing a sea kayak, when it comes to that. If you can’t feel comfortable on flat water sitting still without holding the paddle, it might not keep you in the seat to want to paddle enough to learn.
I’ve been paddling kayaks now continuously for about 2 years. Had paddled canoes, various rowboats, and an occasional kayak many years before that. Past 2 years have included mostly slough paddling in SF Bay Area, but some lessons in sheltered ocean harbor. I am a strong paddler with lower intermediate level experience overall. I can usually keep up with or even lead the longer sea kayaks in the sloughs, but when the wind and tide kick up significantly, then the boat reaches its limits.
My goals were to learn to roll, learn to handle bay and some light ocean paddling. I would like to try more of that open water paddling as I gain experience, and take short day trips. No desire to do expeditions, kayak camping, heavy ocean crossings, racing, nor whitewater. Not sure about surfing or rock gardening; might try the former with lessons, latter is unlikely.
So it’s pretty basically going up from rec kayaking to some serious stuff, but not gnarly stuff, for day tripping. And I will not get the opportunity to buy up again, so this purchase needs to fit most situations for years to come.
Ever go into a bicycle shop? And try an expensive bike. They all have two wheels and many the same gears, yet one or two just feel great. Of course they are always more expensive.
Human powered craft shows small tiny differences because we are so in touch with it. You have to try boats, literally. Try friends boats and see how things feel for you. Paddlers are never really satisfied simply because the water conditions are always different and each boat does things a little better in each condition. I’ve been in highly recommended boats that a lot of people like and really didn’t like them that much. So, the answer is to have lots of them. Or… just be more acceptive with them.
Really different boats When I take out a rounded bottom or soft chined boat versus a hard chined boat I have a few minutes of getting used to changing how aggressivly I can edge to boat. Once you get used to a hard chined boat you may like the way it “locks in” while leaned over. I find it comforting to have the secondary stability with a hard chined boat. I have rolled over many more times in soft chined boats (not meaning to) by not having the more defined limit of secondary stability.
One way I think of it is a rounded hull rolls with your hips, a sharper boat “clicks”.
similar zephyr disappointment When I was looking for new boat this fall I was looking seriously at a zephyr 155 after hearing everyone on here rant and rave about them. I was looking for a sportier touring boat that I could expand my skill set in after deciding that the inukshuk that I had was kinda like driving grandma’s mini-van, especially for someone my size (5’8",115lbs). I scoured this site looking for suggestions and advice on which boats I should be looking at in order to compile a sort list, and it looked like the zephyr was going to be the clear choice, until I test paddled it. Don’t get me wrong, it does have some great features - like that seat that adjusts every way you could possibly think of. I didn’t have a problem with stability at all but I found it very slow and sluggish. I tried quite a few boats that day, some were eliminated as soon as I sat in them (necky eliza), and the short list was quickly reduced to two boats after paddling, the valley avocet rm, and the boreal design baffin p100. Both were quick, playful skeg boats that turned nicely and tracked well even in a cross wind. It was a tough decision between the final two, but I went with the baffin, I liked the seat better in the baffin and it edged really nicely. I would have been very disappointed if I had just gone with what everyone on here was saying and ordered a zephyr from the local outfitters.
IMO… …115 pounds is light for any Zephyr. I feel like the Z’s work well for Medium to Large paddlers (15.5) or Large - Xtra Large paddlers (16.0). At 190 pounds I used the 15.5 and the 16.0 felt too big.
I think if you have a Zephyr that fits you reasonably well feelings of instability go away quickly. In the grand scheme of things in my opinion it is on the stable side of the spectrum. It does take conscious effort to keep it tracking in flat water but with skills that issues is much reduced and just a touch of skeg makes it track like a non-rockered boat. As far as speed, it is important to keep in mind that a boat with a lot of rocker is really much shorter than other boats and so you will lose some speed. There is a compromise being made - maneuverability is gained but tracking (and a touch of speed) is lost. So its all a matter of what you want. My choice may not be yours. But I do think that the Zephyr has high primary and secondary stability and so I think you will get adjusted with time in the seat. Have you paddled other boats to compare? What boats?
It wasn't a problem with the boat, but the match between paddler and boat.
I am a little curious about your statement that "everyone here" recommended the Zephyr 155 for you. If you provided that weight, there are several regulars here including myself who would have steered you to something like the Avocet LV or similarly really small scaled boat. Granted a given post might be missed, but that is just way far off the usual results.
That is assuming these correct numbers... is it a typo? 115 pounds would be light for me at 4 inches shorter.
OK, tried more boats on the water Great to paddle on a gorgeous X-mas Eve Day!
First up was the Zephyr 155. Compared to the 160 that I had found so tippy, this one was more stable and controllable for me. It’s a candidate, but would still take getting used to, so not an immediate winner.
Then tried 2 WS Tempests, the 165 and the 170. The 165 immediately felt more stable than the Zephyr and felt a bit faster, but it was too tight a fit for my legs and feet. The 170 felt that it fit my body the best and felt the best in terms of stability, but didn’t want to turn very easily. That’s the trade-off that everyone speaks of.
Tried a Valley Aquanaut (?), but it was so small as to be impossible for me to even get into!
No Alchemys available, unfortunately, as comparing with that boat, which I recall liking, would have been illustrative.
All three WS boats had the same seating system. I’m not used to a back band and don’t particularly like it as yet, but I realize better boats go that way. Only the T 170 felt high enough to be remotely comfortable. What I felt from all 3, however, was fatigue in my thighs, which I assume is an adjustment issue and not due to the boats themselves.
There you have it so far. I’m now more convinced that I need significantly more seat time, plus maybe a good edging class, before trying to buy a new sea kayak.