Rocker touring Kayak question

Really different boats
When I take out a rounded bottom or soft chined boat versus a hard chined boat I have a few minutes of getting used to changing how aggressivly I can edge to boat. Once you get used to a hard chined boat you may like the way it “locks in” while leaned over. I find it comforting to have the secondary stability with a hard chined boat. I have rolled over many more times in soft chined boats (not meaning to) by not having the more defined limit of secondary stability.

One way I think of it is a rounded hull rolls with your hips, a sharper boat “clicks”.

similar zephyr disappointment
When I was looking for new boat this fall I was looking seriously at a zephyr 155 after hearing everyone on here rant and rave about them. I was looking for a sportier touring boat that I could expand my skill set in after deciding that the inukshuk that I had was kinda like driving grandma’s mini-van, especially for someone my size (5’8",115lbs). I scoured this site looking for suggestions and advice on which boats I should be looking at in order to compile a sort list, and it looked like the zephyr was going to be the clear choice, until I test paddled it. Don’t get me wrong, it does have some great features - like that seat that adjusts every way you could possibly think of. I didn’t have a problem with stability at all but I found it very slow and sluggish. I tried quite a few boats that day, some were eliminated as soon as I sat in them (necky eliza), and the short list was quickly reduced to two boats after paddling, the valley avocet rm, and the boreal design baffin p100. Both were quick, playful skeg boats that turned nicely and tracked well even in a cross wind. It was a tough decision between the final two, but I went with the baffin, I liked the seat better in the baffin and it edged really nicely. I would have been very disappointed if I had just gone with what everyone on here was saying and ordered a zephyr from the local outfitters.

IMO…
…115 pounds is light for any Zephyr. I feel like the Z’s work well for Medium to Large paddlers (15.5) or Large - Xtra Large paddlers (16.0). At 190 pounds I used the 15.5 and the 16.0 felt too big.

I think if you have a Zephyr
that fits you reasonably well feelings of instability go away quickly. In the grand scheme of things in my opinion it is on the stable side of the spectrum. It does take conscious effort to keep it tracking in flat water but with skills that issues is much reduced and just a touch of skeg makes it track like a non-rockered boat. As far as speed, it is important to keep in mind that a boat with a lot of rocker is really much shorter than other boats and so you will lose some speed. There is a compromise being made - maneuverability is gained but tracking (and a touch of speed) is lost. So its all a matter of what you want. My choice may not be yours. But I do think that the Zephyr has high primary and secondary stability and so I think you will get adjusted with time in the seat. Have you paddled other boats to compare? What boats?

Too small for the Zephyr at 115 pounds

– Last Updated: Dec-22-12 7:11 PM EST –

It wasn't a problem with the boat, but the match between paddler and boat.

I am a little curious about your statement that "everyone here" recommended the Zephyr 155 for you. If you provided that weight, there are several regulars here including myself who would have steered you to something like the Avocet LV or similarly really small scaled boat. Granted a given post might be missed, but that is just way far off the usual results.

That is assuming these correct numbers... is it a typo? 115 pounds would be light for me at 4 inches shorter.

kayak rocker
I like big boats that can maeuver. That means rocker is good. I like the old Eddyline Raven.

OK, tried more boats on the water
Great to paddle on a gorgeous X-mas Eve Day!



First up was the Zephyr 155. Compared to the 160 that I had found so tippy, this one was more stable and controllable for me. It’s a candidate, but would still take getting used to, so not an immediate winner.



Then tried 2 WS Tempests, the 165 and the 170. The 165 immediately felt more stable than the Zephyr and felt a bit faster, but it was too tight a fit for my legs and feet. The 170 felt that it fit my body the best and felt the best in terms of stability, but didn’t want to turn very easily. That’s the trade-off that everyone speaks of.



Tried a Valley Aquanaut (?), but it was so small as to be impossible for me to even get into!



No Alchemys available, unfortunately, as comparing with that boat, which I recall liking, would have been illustrative.



All three WS boats had the same seating system. I’m not used to a back band and don’t particularly like it as yet, but I realize better boats go that way. Only the T 170 felt high enough to be remotely comfortable. What I felt from all 3, however, was fatigue in my thighs, which I assume is an adjustment issue and not due to the boats themselves.



There you have it so far. I’m now more convinced that I need significantly more seat time, plus maybe a good edging class, before trying to buy a new sea kayak.

The T 165
Lots and lots of folks move the seat back in the 165 to make getting in and out easier. It might solve your leg/foot comfort issue. Also, an old compressed foam block tucked under your calves or ankles feels great.

At 190/5’11" it still might be tight…
At 185lb at 6’4" with a 36" inseam and large feet, with the seat back on the T165, I actually felt quite comfortable barefoot over a couple of hours active paddling. The T170 is doubtless more comfortable for me, but as mentioned, tracks harder and is more boat to deal with. But my legs are skinny and the main issue with the T165 is the low deck (and it is its a major advantage too). A shorter heavier-set person might have bigger tights and feel less comfy…



That said, years ago when I was shopping for my first “real” kayak, I felt the T170 was barely the minimum I could fit in. I chose the Tsunamy 145. Both feel rather big now and, while I like certain room for my long legs and large feet, I’ve gotten to be comfortable in much smaller volume cockpits just as well and tend t prefer them over large and lose fitting ones. I think it just goes with the amount of time spent in boats and what you do with them. So, I would not force someone who is at a point where they prefer “biger” to go “smaller”, until they feel they need smaller. I would also suggest buying used at this point, as their tastes are very likely to change in the near future. So, a used T170 would seem like a good choice. Or a Tsunami 160? I think they come with the higher seat supports too but can be “upgraded” to the backbands in the future…

Yes, i understand
I’m 5’11" (down from 6’1", sadly), 190 lb. and size 12 shoe. Also recovering from hip surgery, so not as flexible as I used to be! It was the shoe situation that got to me in the 165. My feet were crammed together uncomfortably and that put my legs also in a bad position. Wasn’t fat thighs, I can assure you, nor a fat ass, as I’ve never had either to brag about.



Usually I paddle with a Seattle Sport double paddle float partially inflated under my thighs and that works wonders for fit and support. The WS seats all have that thigh lifter adjustment, which I used, but it isn’t quite enough for my taste.



Adjusting those backbands, and in fact, adjusting to a backband at all seems to be a challenge. I’m used to a supportive backrest in my rec boat and I like it. Have lower back problems, so not the best with a low backband, though a higher back band might suit me. Couldn’t get a good adjustment on any of the boats except the T 170. That one seemed to be just high enough to be less uncomfortable and barely supportive. Now, all 3 boats have exactly the same seat/backband systems. So I don’t know if I finally got one done right or if the back deck height is just that smidge higher as to make it more adjustable to my needs. Wouldn’t take more than an inch or two to be noticeably different.



Yes, you’re right. If I could find a decent deal on used, that would be a good way to go. Still need to figure out which one, though. I’m still early in the learning process and have many skills to pick up, plus need to try some surf and open ocean to even get an idea if I’ll ever take to that venue. Short of that, I’d put my money on a 14-15’ boat with high maneuverability and stability, as I remember the Delsyk 430 and Alchemy L both felt to me.

Boat fit for people new to sea kayaks
I think it is worth saying that my experience with this is that when I started kayaking about 2 years ago all the boats of the same ilk you are considering felt terrible small and uncomfortable and the lack of a high seat back really bothered my back (i too have back problems and poor abdominal fitness). But, two years later, and I am 100% comfortable in my Zephyr. If anything it feels loose. Also, I am completely adjusted to the back band and I can paddle for hours on end in complete comfort. As I gain experience I find that I paddle with almost no pressure from the back band at all. I sit erect and I can do it comfortably. I think my experience is common. What feels tight and uncomfortable now as far as fit will feel loose in a year or two. The feeling that you need a high back seat will disappear and you will feel that a high back is limiting your paddling progress. Just a thought. I wonder if others have had the same experience that I did.

Yeah
I think I paddled and piddled in my Tempest for a year or more with the back band strap broken. I wasn’t leaning back against it so there was no hurry to fix it.

Yup, I third that
I like having a backband for various reasons (keeps me in the seat when upside-down and in lumpy conditions, plus I do like having some support to lean my back against to stretch). But I don’t use it while I’m paddling. I too don’t touch it much if at all while paddling. I suppose, I like very little support under my thighs, which allows me to have a more straight-up position. With lots of support under my legs, I tend to slouch, thus relying more on back support. But fit is individual and depends on conditions (and conditioning, initially it is tough without it and it does take quite a seat time to get comfy with little or no support). I suppose a nice supportive back system is nice to have on long days …

Alchemy vs. Zephyr
Any experience with both that you can share? Why would you pick one over the other?

Think different sports cars.
Let me start by saying I am not an expert surf/ocean guy in any way. I paddled the Zephyr 155 and Alchemy S back to back and this is my take on them. The Z is straight line faster, better in rough or active water than the Alchemy. The Alchemy seems more forgiving when edged over and you catch a boil or wave when on edge, and turns a little faster in moving water. The Z wants to go over steep water, the Alchemy will plow in a little.

I think the Alchemy is a better boat for a newer paddler as it seems to have a little better primary stability, but secondary stability is not as defined as the Z has.



Having said that I have ordered a Z now and am going to order an Alchemy S once the tax situation gets squared away and winter pricing is still in effect. Both good boats for different uses. Try to paddle them back to back.

+1 &…
a couple other thoughts. The Z backsurfs pretty good, the Alchemy not so much. In surf the Alchemy is forgiving, the Z will punish lazy reactions. If quickness in turning really matters the Alchemy is better.



All the best, t.

What t george Said
I chose the Alchemy over the Zephyr for that quick turn.

Bart C - a different direction?

– Last Updated: Dec-28-12 11:45 AM EST –

Things that I'm remembering through the posts:

Need room to be comfortable, hip surgery, a little less flexible. Room in cockpit opening to get legs in. Do not like loose stability - probably will only be comfortable in stable sea kayaks. Did not like squirrely tracking.
I'm not really able to infer anything definite as far as maneuverability.
I'm 6' 190 lbs.
Current Designs Caribou. Plenty roomy cockpit. Plenty of room to bring in long legs. Plenty of foot room. It's not in the playful category of the Alchemy or Zephyr. It will have a nice cruising speed and be less squirrely. It will not maneuver as easily, but I think it's worth trying to get the experience and see how it agrees with you.
Of all my sea kayaks, the Caribou has to have the most solid, confidence inspiring stability profile. The secondary is like a rock, to the point where someone uncomfortable edging in a different kayak will feel at ease leaning right into an edge. This, in turn, will very quickly leave you completely unconcerned with primary. You seem like an ideal candidate for this stability profile.
I'm not sure what you're using it for, but for someone who's not quite in tune with loose stability profiles in sea kayaks, who needs comfortable space, I think you may really appreciate this kayak.

Here's a couple pictures of me messing around in some shore break in my Caribou a few weekends ago that a friend took from the beach.

why do I find photos so tricky?

1 more time…
Cape fear has some good insights listed from the original post. In my first reply I suggested taking a look at the North Shore “Aspect”. I have not paddled one myself, however, I did paddle along with a newb in on & he had no trouble trying new things in it. Dan Arbuckle (from THR’s) is paddling one now when not in his Sterling Reflection or a fishing kayak,(this says something to me). The Aspect has about the same rocker as the Z, about the same beam as the Alchemy with more cockpit room than either. I predict this boat to become popular as an option in this catagory. Worth a look.



All the best, t.george