Outfitting canoes for multi-day class II

Have U done the B.S.A. Safety afoat
with your scouts ???

Easier and less-permanent knee pads

– Last Updated: Feb-20-13 11:01 AM EST –

I haven't glued kneeling pads into my boats. I use various foam pads from Bell or Cooke's Custom Sewing, and I just lay them on the bottom of the hull. Foam pads glued to the hull would get far too dirty and abraded in my boats - I can keep them and the boat a lot cleaner with removable pads. To keep them from slipping I install several "traction strips" on the hull. I find that the "indoor" variety of traction strip from 3-M works well (the outdoor variety needs to be "de-gritted" a bit because they are much more abrasive than what's necessary, and could potentially tear up your kneeling pad). To keep my knees from slipping forward on the pad in semi-severe paddling situations, I paint the knee area of the foam pad with "plastic dip" like what's used to coat tool handles. To keep my knees from slipping forward during much more severe paddling situations, I sewed a pair of canvas sleeves to the pad, one just ahead of each knee location, and inserted a short length of pool noodle into each sleeve. I find the sewn-in pool noodle to be a very solid support against knee-slippage, and the whole foam pad will not move under any circumstances with traction strips glued to the hull.

Obviously this type of outfitting would be less than ideal for really wild whitewater, but for what you describe it will be plenty good.

Attachment Points

– Last Updated: Feb-20-13 12:12 PM EST –

Pblanc covered attaching D-rings to the floor of a Royalex boat. In my Royalex boats, which are solo models, I've installed a set of four D-Rings ahead of the seat and behind it. Each set works great for tying packs to the floor. For a tandem canoe, I'd install about six or eight rings (three or four in a row on each edge of the floor) in the center part of the boat. D-rings on the floor will be far more effective at holding your gear down than tying ropes to anchor points on the gunwales, because the ropes will be "pulling down" and cinching everything tightly to the floor, rather than simply overlapping the top of your gear. Attachment points on the gunwales might be handy at times, but on a Royalex boat, I wouldn't install them for any purpose except to make a float-bag cage, and even then you are better off just drilling the hull as Pblanc describes.

I'll add one more note about gear that's lashed securely to the floor. Not only will it not get snagged on anything or get in the way during recovery of a swamped boat, it actually adds to the flotation of the boat. Ever see an unsecured gear pack get away from a swamped boat? Did you see how high it floats? It definitely helps if you can make your packs "one with the boat" by securely lashing them to the floor. Of course, this assumes your packs are either waterproof or properly lined with well-sealed plastic bags (NOT garbage bags - garbage bags are far too flimsy). By the way, there's no need to be able to quickly remove gear from your boat for recovery from a capsize. Since lashed-in gear aids flotation, it's actually easier to get your swamped boat to the shallows with the gear in than not.

For the aluminum boat, I think the ideal thing would be to get a welder to install aluminum patches, with D-rings, onto the floor (I've never heard of someone doing that, but of course it can be done). I also see no problem with bolting such patches to the floor (you already have rivets poking through, so tiny, round-head bolts would not make things any worse), but make sure you seal the contact surface between hull and patch. In the first case, you would need to make (or have someone make) custom patches, so this takes someone's talent and time (which may cost extra). In the second case, you could use steel patches, and can probably find them ready-made with D-rings attached, but they will rust (that wouldn't bother me - they'd still last virtually forever). Here's a case where D-rings bolted to the gunwales might be okay, but I'd keep the number to a minimum and avoid drilling holes any bigger than you have to. However, if you are only attaching ropes at gunwale height, the thwarts are already going to give you similar tie-down ability, so maybe skip the gunwale attachment points altogether. I guess another option would be to install them partway down the sides, proving better direction of pull for your anchor ropes but still not requiring waterproofing where you drill holes to attach the anchor plates.

On the river…

– Last Updated: Feb-20-13 11:36 PM EST –

You've received some good feedback regarding rigging the canoes; I won't add anything to that subject.

However, I would suggest that you have some practice sessions, with all participants, prior to actually getting on the river. Practice the recovery of people, boats, and gear. The time for such practice is NOT the first time those things occur on the river.
When I did river trips with scouts, every participant was trained in first aid, CPR, Basic Water Safety, and Intro to Canoeing.
Adults who accompanied the troop on those trips received the same training.
NO training; NO GO!

On the river the lead, center, and drag canoes were always manned by at least one adult, and all 3 of those boats had rescue gear available.
The scouts got a lot of boat recovery practice; assisting other paddlers who had "no" training.
The scouts were not allowed to "play games" while paddling; that was for break time. Not staying on schedule resulted in no breaks. I took most of the responsibility away from the adults; gave it to the scouts. They dealt with it just fine, after they learned the concept of receiving "natural consequences" for unacceptable/unsafe/childish behavior.
In many cases, the scouts handled things better than some parents who participated in the outings.

Scouts were broken down into food groups, and were responsible for their own meal cooking/cleanup.
Each food group had their own area when camping.
Food prep for the outings was done by the scouts.
Scouts inspected all campsites every morning for cleanliness/no gear left/fires out, before departure.
Scouts inspected all canoes for proper rigging every day before putting on the river.
Scouts assured that canoes maintained distance between each other while on the river.
Any canoe capsizing resulted in all canoes stopping & preparing to assist, if necessary.

Made my trip & theirs a lot less hassle, and a lot more fun, in my opinion.
I used the same methods on backpacking, caving, rockclimbing/rappeling, and Philmont trips.

Kids don't learn much (except irresponsiblity) when adults make all the decisions, do all the work & accept all the responsibilities.

BOB

I can’t picture what you’re suggesting.
Also, standard drill for emptying a gear-loaded canoe is to get it to the bank and roll it. Gear removal may not be necessary.



A hand pump will help remove water from a gear-loaded boat, and rolling will remove the last water.



If a canoe is too delicate to be rolled with gear in it, that canoe shouldn’t have been used on that river. Trippers and Alumacraft, no problem.

Second the Safety Afloat & Paddlecraft
Safety, and Safe Swim Defense, as good learning activities over a weekend before your trip. I’ve helped teach this program to Leaders and Senior Scouts in our and nearby councils. May become mandatory for Leaders soon. R

Am I the only one who thinks that
… chasing floating gear bags on class II only ups the fun factor?



(only half kidding)

I read a book last year
about canoe camping and the author recommended tying a rope to a thwart, running it through all the bags except for one, then tying the other end to that one. His argument was boat recovery and water extraction would be much easier without a boat full of gear and the gear would still be easy to recover when things settled down. Haven’t tried it because I generally canoe camp where boat recovery is extremely unlikely to be necessary, but…

tethering packs
Might be a reasonable idea for flat water trips as it allows easily getting the weight out of the boat to allow a boat-over-boat rescue to be done if a capsize occurs some distance from shore.



Probably not a good idea for river tripping as the tethers can pose an entanglement hazard. Most river tripping is done close enough to shore so that the most reasonable thing to do is to get the boat to the shallows by shore, get one stem up on the bank a bit, and invert the boat to empty it.



Horsing a capsized canoe to shore towing a string of packs tied to it out in the current is a lot more difficult than if the gear is secured within the hull. It also negates the beneficial effect of the buoyancy of the packs providing flotation for the canoe.

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Can’t recall specifically,
but I think his point was that the boat and paddlers would be well downstream of the lighter packs, in which case entrapment wouldn’t be as much of a concern. However, as you said, if the packs remained in the boat they would displace water which would be helpful. Think I’ll just continue with my cam strap X.

Free floating packs(anchors)

– Last Updated: Feb-21-13 2:16 PM EST –

Tying a rope to a thwart, then tying the rope to a string of packs which float free if the canoe capsizes can easily result in "boat entrapment".
If one of the packs gets caught on a boulder or strainer, the canoe may continue downstream until it reaches the end of the rope end attached to the thwart. Then, if the water flow is strong; the thwart used as an attachment point may snap from the combined weight of gear, canoe, and water in the canoe. Wood gunwales may also be damaged, as thwarts are attached to the gunwales.Seen it happen.

I personally like for my packs to remain secured inside the canoe, and ideally kept below the height of the gunwales. I will tie very small items(sponge, canteen, pump, etc.) to the thwart in front of me, on a short line that presents little to no entanglement issue.

BOB

Makes sense.
As I said, never tried it and can’t imagine I ever will.

It could have been by Bill Mason

– Last Updated: Feb-21-13 8:42 PM EST –

In one of his early books, Bill Mason recommended a tether system like what you describe, but some years later he changed his mind, and if I remember correctly, he came to the conclusion that tying packs securely in the boat was a better method. He wrote about changing his method in a later book. Since a lot of people go by what he wrote, even a recent book might recommend the same as what's in an early book by Mason.

its like fast food
quick and convenient. Here’s how its done in a flash.

1} clovehitch on center thwart

2} atttach one trailing end with a bowline to a packframe or packloop

3}attach other trailing end with a bowline to other pack.

4}set packs frame side down, tuck extra rope under the packframes.



It will keep you from losing you packs in the event of an unexpected capsize.



A heavy pack- like a kettle pack will sink like a heavy anchor- it should always be lashed in



in whitewater, whitecaps, or other rough conditions all packs should be lashed in.The packs provide extra flotation and the rope hazard is minimized by lashing. However, it is a pain in the butt to unlash to drain boat completely- which is sometimes necessary.



all packs should be goose necked with liners. Trash compactor bags and heavy duty rubber bands work well for this.Poor man’s dry bag!



That’s how I did it in the boyscouts. Worked well for me.

if you let the gear remain loose on the
San Juan you will have a heck of a chase. Tethers are risky because of entrapment risk.



You are right to tie in. Yes rescue is harder but not impossible if all the gear is below the rails. Please I hope you are not using seat backs…those are a huge impediment.

You’ve had a “heavy pack” sink?

– Last Updated: Feb-22-13 10:29 AM EST –

Since I've seen some really big, "heavy" packs floating like corks, I decided to see how much they'd have to weigh in order to sink. Using Duluth Pack's catalog specs for the volume of a #3 canoe pack (the #3 pack is the average size as canoe packs go), one can calculate that it would have to be loaded with more than 190 pounds of gear in order to sink, and just how are you going to accomplish that? I'm guessing, but I bet that if you stuffed the pack with a normal gear load and then tied three cast-iron Dutch ovens to the outside you might get it to weigh half that much (which of course means that it would still float really well).

Hmm, maybe you are talking about putting a cast-iron kettle in it's own pack? I never imagined that someone would do that. Such a pack would sink of course if not waterproof (though I bet a lot of them would float if waterproof), but it would be anything BUT "heavy".

It was bugging me so I looked it up.
Canoe Camping: An Essential Guide by Mark Scriver.

When we were on the San Juan, our
Maine Guides left it up to us about whether to tie our gear bags in the canoes. Probably they were reasoning that the rapids were relatively short, followed by just swift water, and that if bags floated loose, those waiting at the bottom of the rapid, like me, could snag them.



But with a scout group, I might have all of them tie the gear in, because I would not expect them to be as good at chasing loose gear as those in our party. And they might be a little more likely to swamp or flip.

not the only one
Mark is not the only person to make such a suggestion. This is an excerpt from “Canoeing: A Trailside Guide” written by Gordon Grant, a former head of whitewater instruction at the Nantahala Outdoor Center.



“What about lashing all those waterproof containers into the canoe in case of a flip? There are two schools of thought on this. In one, all the gear is lashed in tightly so that there is no way it can shift at all. In the other, a single line is laced through the packs’ handles attaches them to the canoe at only one point – usually one of the thwarts. Although it seems to go against common sense, I prefer the second method for lake travel. There is no need for tight lashing as long as the packs fit fairly snugly in the boat. The purpose of the line is to keep your gear from floating away in the event of a flip. The line should be long enough that the packs will float alongside the canoe while you empty it of water. If the packs are securely lashed in, it is very difficult to empty the boat of water without unloading everything. Even in shallow water, lifting a canoe with packs in it is very difficult; having the packs lashed in makes gunwale-over-gunwale rescues improbable indeed.”



Note that Gordon only recommends this method for lake travel.

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Very helpful discussion–thanks!