Romany vs Zephyr or Tempest

You’re on the right track,
demo, demo, demo. I,(5’10" 155#), own a T-165pro, Z-155rm & a Alchemy 14s(tight fit, the 14l is what you should look at). They are IMO, all very different boats with a fair amount of overlap; in turning & general playfullness, they’d be rated A, Z, T, in tracking without skeg, T, A, Z, in beginer friendliness, A, T, Z, in ease of rolling, T, Z gets an edge on A, in speed, T, Z, A, in “rough water paddling”(as in ease to hold course, least effort & least effected by quartering seas), T, Z, A, they all have enough storage for what you’re asking. I should add that I’m usually more comfy in my Z than the Alchemy, so do a lot of rock gardening & surfing in it; if I could only have one, for me it’d be the quirky little Z since it’s better in ways that are improtant to me & I can back surf it :).





You should go to the “Kayak Academy” web site & read what they say about your first kayak. I would lean toward recommending the Alchemy because it’ll take good care of a newb and when you decide to get a second kayak it’ll be your go to rock garden beater.



All the best, t.george


rought water and short…

– Last Updated: Feb-26-13 8:48 PM EST –

Rough water and short generally go well together. Check out what Neptune's Rangers do at http://www.youtube.com/user/NeptunesRangers. P&H Delphin, dagger Alchemy, Pyranha Fusion are the most common boats used (but a few others are in there). Longest of that pack is the 15.5' Delphin. I show up in some of these videos in my red and orange Alchemy with red helmet, but I am not as good as the guys and gals you see the most of (t.george paddles with them also, so may also show up).

Short boats generally lose in speed and storage capacity. A shorter water line boat will generally have a slower hull speed. And of course, less room to pack stuff.

But if anything, I would rather a shorter boat in chop or the surf zone than a longer boat.

…p.s…
I meant to add that though I love the Zephyr, it does not perform that well without some deep edging and a fair amount of aquired skills; further it will punish bad technique. Conversely, the Alchemy will do quite a bit for the novice and can really really shine in the hands of the skilled.



FWIW, t.george


Length and rough water
It’s the overall hull design and the features (bulkheads, smaller cockpit etc) that make a rough water boat. Until more recently the right features were rare to find in a boat less than 16 feet, not because it was impossible but because kayak manufacturers hadn’t seen a clear market to design such a boat. But there is a solid consumer base for these boats and the manufacturers have responded.



There are plenty of transition and rec-ier type boats in 14 ft that don’t perform nearly to the level of boats like the Alchemy and the others like it, and would not be recommended for someone wishing to push their skills for big water. But that is because of the overall hull design and issues like larger cockpits that would make an on-water recovery more difficult, not because of the length alone.

Romany
hands down the best of the bunch. It does everything well and has sufficient storage for weekend camping. Rock solid and well tested. Get the standard fiberglass setup. Comes with a skeg and a day-hatch, which is a very handy hatch to have. Hardly ever use the skeg. Tracks very well and speed should be very good for you at your weight. If you get almost any boat in plastic, you’ve got to transport the boat on its sides or upside down to prevent oil-canning during the heat of summer… The Romany has a key-hole cockpit which allows sit down and then bring legs in and vice -versa. The hatches are extremely dry. They are built to take punishment. Primary stability is excellent as is secondary. The boat tracks very well and carves turns easily while on edge. I love mine and my wife likes it a lot. I prefer glass boats over plastic, until I hit an oyster bed…

Matter of fit too

– Last Updated: Feb-26-13 11:27 PM EST –

Blah! I hated the fiberglass Romany in terms of fit and cockpit ergonomics for me. The plastic Z 155 and the T 165 and the Delphin 155 were all more ergonomic and easier to adjust the fit out of the box for me... Nothing that some foam padding would not cure probably around the knee area, though the seat and back band in the Romany were also rather nasty to my bottom parts.

Once you paddle a Delphin, there is no going back to other 15-16 footers -;)

All this shows that personal preferences and intended use mean the perfect boat does not exist outside of a combination of factors that changes over time even for the same paddler...

You guys are completely right
There won’t be any one boat out there that will cover everything. However, I think once I get my first, it’ll be a couple of years before I get the next one. I’m not worried about the learning curve. I’d rather struggle a bit as I learn and take classes and have plenty of learning room for the next couple of years.



Peter, those are some crazy videos. It’s funny, at times it’s like watching ww videos, only the water comes from every side. It’s also very strange to see small boats with GL paddles, but it makes a lot of sense. Both you and Celia bring up good points I didn’t think about. In my head I was thinking that the longer the boat, the more floatation. Therefore longer would be better for rough waters. Couldn’t be more wrong though. Those small play boats are huge in volume and perfect for quick movements. (Just like in ww). I’m starting to get how shape provides different functionality, but it’s all about preference more than anything else.



The only problem I see with getting a romany would be that I’d probably find it on eBay and it would be completely unpredictable. I’d hope the last owner took good care of it, etc. This being my first big boat, I keep thinking it might be better to get something new that I know is in perfect condition and can have support from the manufacturer if there’s anything wrong. Plus, that I was able to test in person.



Thanks all. This is extremely helpful.

Get the Z 15.5
This is the most versatile of the bunch with play as a high priority and by far the cheapest, along with the T165. The Zephyr is also lighter than the rest, even the plastic Z is lighter than the fiberglass Romany and probably more durable where hard banging against rocks is involved. The Delphin handles better for bigger wave surfing and for currents, the Tempest is nicer to cover some distance in. All good choices, including the Romany, but for $600-$900 used a Z or a T makes a lot of sense to me as a firs boat for what you want. They are a bit lively but actually quite stable once you get used to them. The Delphin (and I think the Romany too) have stronger initial stability since they are flatter and more square bottomed, so they will be easier to get in and just paddle coming from a rec boat. The Delphin is unfortunately quite heavy at over 60lb and the T165 is low in the cockpit, which some don’t like for long days on the water. The hatches on the D are watertight and very solid; the ones on the Z may or may not bewatertight (more variation there) and are not as solid, but still fine and safe. So try them all - as long as the skeg works, the hatches close well, and the foam bulkheads are sealed (you can do that yourself easily if they aren’t) - there is very little that can be wrong with a used plastic boat, so IMO the risk of buying used plastic Z or T is low, if they look good overall - fiberglass you have to see in person carefully as there might be hidden damage/soft spots/repairs/cracks etc. that are not easily evident from photos.

Hey Luke,
Check out what is available from Novus Composites Kayaks. They are all American made and are super kayaks. nckayaks.com.

keep in mind
What I said about shorter being better was a generalization, and Celia added a very important note to this - only works on boats that are made as touring boats (so have hatches front and back, hull shapes made for moving,m etc.). Rec boats are shorter, but are not made for rough water.



And don’t necessarily mimic what Neptune’s Rangers do. Going too short, like the white water boats, adds risks (and takes away lots of speed). The Fusions and sometimes even true white water boats used by Neptune’s Rangers are only used when the rock play spots are close to the launch, and even then add in additional risks (particularly the true white water boats). These guys have true bombproof rolls (most of those guys only swim once every few years, even with what they do), have as much added flotation as can be added, know how to do a TX rescue if it gets that far, etc. Not for mere mortals like me.

Avocet?
At your size, don’t miss an opportunity to demo an Avocet RM.

Others in the lineup
In addition to something Delphin/Aries wise, when you’re up for it and here, others that’d be worth taking out of the Boathouse would be;



North Shore Polar

P&H Scorpio (std. or lv - depends on fit)

Venture Islay/Islay LV - Might not be a bad combination of features.



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com

hudsonriverpaddler.org

Looks like I have a new list
To continue researching. Thanks again all. We have our first indoor pool session coming up this weekend. I’m pumped to get going.

Many other boats to try
Unfortunately I am bigger than you and do not fit well in the Romanies, and Zephyr 155. I really liked the Zephyr 160 Pro for fit and maneuverability. It would be a great all-around play boat. Rolling the Zephyr 155 was the best next to my SOF. Wilderness has the best seats. After trying the Aries 155 and Delphin 155, I think they are the best all-around play boats. I found a good deal on an Aries 155 and now have one.

Some other boats to try are Necky Elias, Eliza, Chatham 16, and Chatham 17. I found the Elias composite to be a fantastic rough water boat. The Delphin provided a little more secondary pressure for big waves than the Elias because of my high CG. Medium size paddlers should enjoy the Elias. If the Elias cockpit is too big try the Eliza. There are plenty of reviews on the Chatham series. Valley has the Avocet which has great reviews. They have 2 new small boats out also. So you have many choices for play boats. Now which to choose play boat or touring?



JimZ

Tempest 165
I got the Tempest 165 for Christmas and it’s a fantastic boat but don’t even consider it…you’ll never fit. I’m 5’6", 150lbs and with size 10 shoes. The foot room can be a bit cramped for me at times but otherwise it fits me like a glove. The 170 or even the 180 Pro would be great for you size wise.

not necessarily
Fit for the OP may depend on what type of footwear is used, and whether the Tempest seat were to be moved back, as a number of owners have done. There are guys that size that enjoy the T165.

I think sizing will be determined
When I finally get to sit in some options and test things out.



As far as playful vs touring, in my head I’m looking at it the way I approach snowboarding. Some like going fast. Some like trick courses and halfpipes. I like neither, I like going on intermediate runs or whatever level the group of people I’m with is at. I like enjoying the ride, and the moment I see a jump on the side of the trail I’m on it. Same goes if I see a quick run into the woods, or a place to explore. Therefore my board is neither hard for speed, or super soft for tricks. It’s right down the middle. Plenty of speed, but handles beautifully the moment I want to have some fun.



That’s what I want out of my first boat. I want to be able to travel with a pack of kayakers, as well as be able to take enough equipment for short camping trips. However, the moment I get the chance to play in some surf (once I learn enough skills of course) or some small ww patches, I want to know my boat can handle it and it’ll be a great time. I don’t want to get stuck with a boat that can do only one of those two thing beautifully. I want to find one that might not be the best at either, but as good a crossover as possible. We’ll also see what my butt tells me once I sit in a couple of options.



Once again, thanks all for the superb feedback.

One more addition
I also think I’ll be able to get another boat down the line depending on what I like best at that point. Maybe I fall in love with playing in surf, I think at that point it would be excellent to then purchase my next boat specifically for that task. And vice versa…

A quiver full
Welcome to the addiction.



See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com

hudsonriverpaddler.org

Gremlin!

– Last Updated: Feb-28-13 4:40 PM EST –

That's so not true. I have a buddy at about 6'4" and about 175 pounds who thoroughly enjoys his T165. He just had to move the seat back some.

edit:

Dear Wilderness Systems, God knows how many people are passing up your fine boat because the seat is bolted in too far forward. Make the damn thing easily adjustable.

Your friend,

Kudzu