As de ol’ Mingo sayin’ goes…
– Last Updated: Mar-17-13 9:13 AM EST –
It ain't de tool... it's de fool!
(Actooly, me Master cabinet-maker uncle always used ta say dat. Didn't reckon thaar waar Mingos in Germany! Whoda thinked?)
FE
Do it all the time.
There has never been a problem including during multiday camping trips with varying water conditions. Its all about the group dynamics and how the paddlers get along not the type of boat they are paddling. One item we talk about ahead of time if new people are joining us is that each person is responsible for transporting their own gear. This is to avoid people looking at all that space in a canoe and figuring they can bring folding chairs etcetera and have the canoeist transport them. Even that has never been an issue but it gets the “new” person to practice packing everything in their boat at home. With shared gear we try and split as evenly as possible so no one becomes the pack mule.
really?
I think that your canoe pals need to take you on a trip that has a bunch of portages. I’m sure their nice guys and will wait for you to catch up.
Since when was a camping trip a race?
canoe paddling with kayaks
I went on a river trip last summer, 3 kayaks and 2 canoes. The one solo canoe was always in the lead, couldnt keep up with him. He is a very seasoned paddler and could maneuver his canoe, better than anyone that was paddling that day. Im a kayaker, but have seen what an experienced paddler can do with a canoe. A lot depends on the paddler, not the type of kayak or canoe they are in. Keep paddlin and have fun!!!
Yes possible
As above, if the canoeists are good there really should not be a problem as far as speed goes. And canoes have done the Maine Island trail - but they are pretty good canoeists and are fully set up with float bags etc.
As far as conditions and rescues if needed, the answer is the same except that it also goes heavily to your own rescue skills. A kayaker can help rescue a canoe using very similar techniques to those used with another kayak, except for minor details like having to pass the canoe more fully over your own hull to dump out the water. And being a bit more secure in the balance in your own kayak to do so - I find that in my lower volume sea kayak I am sinking down a good bit about midway in that process. I would not recommend trying this without spending some time practicing rescues with a variety of canoes because there are a few minor diff’s that you don’t want to be figuring out the first time in significant wind and waves.
If your experience with these folks is that they are not particularly skilled canoeists, I’d look to that alone as an issue because it could affect handling problems on the water.
Went on a 4 day, slow-moving river trip
once, I was in my kayak along with two tandem/paddled solo canoes. A good friend of mine set it up and we knew each other pretty well. I like to move out, not really a racer, but not really casual either. He told me I could move out like I liked, just stop periodically so we could get together. So, I had the option. Sometimes I’d crank it up and sometimes I’d hang back and talk.
It was amazing to me how much stuff they could bring though! Two full sized tents, a folding table, big cooler, 24" cast iron frying pan for breakfast, etc. These guys liked to eat really well. Had a great time, everyone could do what they wanted, pretty much. Really laid back, had a great time.
Can canoes and kayaks travel together? I’d say yes, just be careful with your expectations.
Canoeists bring pies
Literally - we had a mixed canoe/kayak group of fellow workers, now fellow retirees, that have done an annual trip for years. One of the food calculations is how many pies to bring - intact - because of having the canoes. Yum!
Pie in the hatch …
A kayaking friend brought a home baked pie nicely
packaged and safely wrapped in her kayak hatch.
I helped her at the take-out, she went on shore,
I yanked the kayak cockpit up on my shoulder,
only to be met with screams about inverted pie 
Kayaks and pies don’t mix, if others carry your kayak.
the inverse problem
as a solo canoer when i plan an lead paddles and camping trips with my paddling friends i have the opposite problem. on day trips the kayakers have trouble with a difficult launch,having to get out at obsticals and shallow spots,and lunch break spot takouts. on overnights they have trouble with carrys and want a wilderness trip with none.they do also usually want to go faster. i have stopped trying to plan a compromise paddle. i plan it for the way i want and advertise it honestly so they can choose weather to come. you could do the same.
turtle
Curious
Sounds like you are talking about open water sea kayaking? Not knowing much about canoes but I have seen skirts and floatation can be added to canoes. BUT if they dont have that added to there canoes I wouldnt think sea kayaking to islands would be a good idea in a canoe without skirts and flotation.Iam I wrong? River tripping sure but open water sea kayaking not so sure without added equipment which they may or may not have. But then again your kayak needs a skirt too.
Thank you
That was a realistic answer.
Maybe I should have phrased my question something like, “Given paddlers of equal, moderate ability on large lakes prone to high winds . . . "
My worry is that a canoe could be overwhelmed more easily than a kayak. I would not have the skill to rescue a canoeist from my kayak. My attempt to do that would put us both at risk.
As a kayaker it’s hard to imagine an open craft 30” wide making much progress against a strong headwind that goes on for hours. That irritates and exhausts a kayaker, but it might just be impossible for a canoe. In those conditions what has saved me in the past was not my skill, but the kayak itself because:
a) it requires less energy than a canoe to keep moving forward against a headwind
b) it tracks better
c) double blading keeps it on course better
d) the low sitting position is more stable and aerodynamic
e) a kayak is more forgiving of paddler error. You can take a large wave over the bow and recover. You can take water in the cockpit and recover with a pump.
I’m starting to remember
I’m pretty sure I know you from a past life. I believe we met at Waterloo. Are you still mad about that?
Large lakes
which often have ocean conditions.
sometimes its hard to find the right
paddling partners for a given stretch of water. I don’t know you, your friends, or much about ocean like conditions, but we should all listen to that little voice inside us. If you’re having reservations then consider your options. You could find a stretch of water that is more compatible for the group or get a new group to complete what you want to do. You owe it to your paddling buddies to be honest. Tell them your concerns. You could purpose a compromise by: limiting open water time/crossings, renting better suited craft,or trying a shakedown trip. Its bad karma to go against your little voice.Only do what you’re comfortable with when it comes to others safety. It is okay to lie about the takeout. Its always “just around the bend” or “a little further.” Everybody expects that.
Mixed marriages …
… may work sometimes.
my experience
I paddle all the time with kayakers – I in my fast solo canoe. I can usually go faster than most of them. There is one guy who is always faster than I am, but he is faster than all the other kayakers, too. Only once, going through Hell Gate against really strong winds, did kayakers have to turn back and make sure I was all right (I was fine, just “slightly delayed”).
On the other hand, there are things I won’t do. I prefer edges to crossings; I choose my crossings for minimum risk and minimum distance, when sometimes the more skilled kayakers will intentionally choose the longer, rougher crossing. Having decks and bulkheads and rigging can make up for a lot of missing skill; it’s hard to outfit a non-whitewater canoe for an ocean-style crossing.
Overall, I would say that, for a wide range of moderate conditions, a solo canoeist can paddle with a kayaker, if both have experience in similar conditions and both are willing to put up with minor inconveniences related to the choice of craft. As conditions worsen, the canoeist’s skills and judgement need to improve much faster than the kayaker’s. And there comes a point where you just have to have a deck and bulkheads (in a sea canoe, possibly – nothing magic about a kayak’s seating position).
Finally, I wouldn’t go on a risky trip with people I hadn’t paddled with before, regardless of what kind of boat they liked. If rescues were at all likely, I would want to practice rescues with them. You would find out more by paddling with these people, gradually ramping up the risk and difficulty, than you will by armchair reasoning. If they are sensible and the risk is too much for them, they will bow out and save you the difficult decision.
Mark
THANK YOU!!
Your comments are very, very helpful.
Can you tell me what makes for a safe yet fast canoe? Width, length, and hull shape? I don’t know anything about canoes.
I’m not at all a fast kayaker and I take pains to avoid rough water. My route decisions are very similar to your own. My concern is the times when the conditions go beyond moderate. I think you answered this when you said, “As conditions worsen, the canoeist’s skills and judgement need to improve much faster than the kayaker’s. And there comes a point where you just have to have a deck and bulkheads.”
That’s my sense also—that my intermediate kayaking skills and closed craft will get me through conditions that will overwhelm a canoe.
I’ve decided that I will tour with these canoeists. Your comments help me foresee what could transpire. I’m going to suggest a lake that has quite a few islands for shelter and a quick return to the launch. Maybe car camping with day trips would be a good way to start.
Thanks very much to everyone who contributed input on this. Very much appreciated.
Do your friends use float bags?
(in their canoes) It really, really makes a diff in handling on-water issues.
Design does play a part
in canoe seakindliness. A fat tandem of a tub with no secondary stability is not what you want in chop or waves.
I run Superior in a RapidFire. It IS a canoe, but paddled from the more stable low seated position that is in a kayak. Its hull shape bobs over waves and the shouldered tumble home deflects side waves to break down and not in. I do use a spray skirt (full) but mostly to make the hull shape more wind resistant. RF is about 23.5 inches wide at the waterline and 15 feet long. Its a canoe. Note its dimensions are not unlike many sea kayaks. (Some kayaks are 17 feet lonng but a foot or more of the length is not usually in the water)
On the Gulf of Mexico which I am going on tomorrow I am using a Curtis Nomad, a general all purpose solo canoe that is over 15 feet long. Again its no tub but I do have a standard canoe seat.
The skill set is more important…way more important than the equipment. On open water the canoeist must be able to get stable and kneel. NO sitting on a high seat in those conditions. They have to have the savvy to keep the head in bounds of the rails. The seamanship really only comes with time… knowing how weather will change without a forecast given to you, and knowing how to handle various wind directions. Canoes are more sensitive to wind, and the paddler(s) really MUST know how to ferry, and deal with stern quartering winds.
On a river trip I really see no difference between canoe and kayak. I use a canoe since I sometimes portage and carry gear some half dozen times a day…and when there are kayaks along on those trips, the kayakers lose badly.
Please do not feel free to dump excess gear that won’t fit in your kayak in the canoe…Then you really can overload them. They are just as sensitive to loads as yaks are. Its not always true that canoeists carry more. On some of my trips of two weeks everything including food comes to 50 lbs. I have done myself in on river trips by helping yakkers by carrying their three Coleman two burner stoves up front where there was room and wildly screwing up the trim of the canoe and hence the performance.
There are kayakers who have poor technique and hence go slower than faster better trained yakkers. Same for canoeists. Its true that the learning curve to get better with canoe can be daunting to some. Its up to your canoe companions how well they have trained. If they are arm paddlers, they probably will have trouble keeping up.
Also think about who is capable of doing the rescues. My kayaking friends at AMC did not want me to paddle the Gulf of Maine with them as they said I could not keep up. A two hour paddle of 12 miles had me out in front the whole time. Now the real reason they confided in me was that they as kayakers were familiar with rescuing kayakers, but had no idea how to deal with an upset canoe. So we all worked on that technique. and found that boat over boat workes fine with the kayak underneath and then the heel hook for an assisted reentry once the canoe is empty with the sunny side up.
I suspect that that too is your real concern, and its legit
Do your “friends” know
You posted this here ???
Guy