Kayaks paddling with canoes

Do your “friends” know
You posted this here ???



Guy

Conditions
The first rule of safety for any boating excursion hinges on whether you trust the skills and judgement of your fellow paddlers. If yes, go with them. If no, the decision is really easy. The only difficult call is whether you are unsure of their abilities. In that case, you should probably start with a smaller excursion to assess their judgement and skills.



There is no reason that canoes and kayaks cannot intermingle. We’ve done this before and because the canoes can hold so much gear, they can be a joy to paddle with as long as the personalities don’t clash.



There are conditions that can overwhelm equipment and or paddler ability, regardless of the type of craft. Well outfitted canoes have been used in class 5 water and there is no reason the craft itself should be considered inferior to a kayak (though you won’t find these old knees in a canoe) :).



Rick

Sorry I have no time for trolls
What is your point?

No requirement to kneel in a canoe.
Most can be equipped with foot braces and the seats lowered to achieve acceptable stability and control while seated.

I was wondering about that myself
Thanks for the reminder. If they have them I’ll feel a lot better.

Thanks!
All very helpful information.



About dumping the excess gear in the canoe, my concern is the opposite. I travel very light with backpacking equipment and like to spend my time enjoying the scenery, not fiddling with large mounds of gear and 4-man tents that don’t fit on a backcountry site. But I can try to be flexible about that.



Yes, rescue is my primary concern. I do not have the ability to rescue a canoeist in the water. But like any human being I would try to assist. That would put both of us in danger in bad conditions.




My answer was to Waterbird
Read through his posts, and see how he treats his “friends” that paddle canoes.

He is the novice. Not them!



And no, I am not a troll. Waterbird knows that



Guy

You can rescue a canoist
from a kayak - at least, once you have spent a little time working on it. This is an incorrect assumption from lack of working with mixed craft.



If you have not learned or practiced this, you probably should not try tricky passages with canoes. Even if the swimmer knows how you ought to do it, you might still have to be the one executing.

Have had this experience
It is a common experience for kayakers to be joined by relatively unskilled canoeists and find they are significantly slower. We have some canoeists who can smoke many of the kayakers in our local bunch, as well as some (like me) who have some time to go before their stroke is good enough not to be in the slowest group. Many highly skilled canoeists, in my experience, paddle with other canoeists of similar skill more often than kayaks, at least on flat water. WW is a different story.



The question is not the experience but what impact it has on planning a trip. I have been on a number of short, evening type paddles where canoeists arrived with no float bags and no concept of how to handle a capsize except to swim to shore. This is not a plan in the middle of a larger lake. As to speed, there are desired routes where a minimum distance has to be made in a day to get to the next campsite, especially if it is a reservation situation.



My personal take at this point in my life is to dawdle as needed rather than worry about speed, so if it were me speed would not be the issue. But if someone plans an overly ambitious trip and ends up trying to make land in the dark, or overestimates their ability to manage the situation if a wind comes up - these are real problems. I can do a rescue with a canoe, I can do some towing. But if it is handling unprepared paddlers in the canoe(s) in a very difficult situation one of me just doesn’t go all that far. Things could get nasty.



If someone has not had experience with better skilled canoeists, or practiced kayak/canoe rescues, it is understandable that they would have some concerns about how to manage a longer trip.

No, not I
I’m well aware of my limitations related to age and anatomical functioning. In rough water I would be useless for rescuing another person whether canoe or kayak.

To be honest
I have no idea who you are or what’s on your mind, but that’s okay. Carry on.

Planning
After reading your post it struck me that a trip should probably be planned around the less skilled paddler and the least seaworthy craft. And then you paddle at the speed of the slowest person. I guess I can live with that. Or if I can’t I’ll find that out on the first trip. I’m willing to try.



I have to say again that I am a low-key paddler, not a rough-water speed demon. I just want everyone to be safe.

safe yet fast canoe
Two clarifications to my earlier post, and then an answer to Waterbird’s question.



I am fairly fast among solo canoeists. It is true that, with a canoe and a kayak of about the same length and about the same stability (given the difference in seat height), and assuming that both paddlers are giving the same effort, the kayak will usually be faster.



Your decision to paddle with someone depends more on their skills and judgement than on their boat, but the boat does matter. I disagree with those who said that an open canoe can handle everything a kayak can handle. If steep, four-foot waves are dumping onto the bow of your boat, you need a deck, not a fabric cover (and a strong deck, too – not every kayak is strongly built).



As to what makes a safe yet fast canoe:



It sounds like speed isn’t a huge issue, so I recommend a boat between 28 and 31 inches wide for most people. A 32-inch-wide solo is probably for big guys. Under 27 inches is getting into race-boat territory. A wider boat (probably a tandem paddled solo) usually gives the wind a lot of surface area to push against.



Length doesn’t matter much. I would prefer not to go below 14 feet, except for a small and skilled paddler, but you would be surprised what a good 13-footer can handle.



No opinion on depth. Probably any boat chosen for an ambitious trip by an experienced canoeist will have a good depth. Deeper means more windage but also more dryness.



I wouldn’t take a flat-bottomed boat on a high-risk trip, but as to the differences among non-flat bottoms (shallow V’s, elliptical arches, and so on), no opinion.



No educated opinion on the sit-vs-kneel question. I kneel in rough water, but I have a boat made for kneeling. I have seen sitting canoeists take some impressive waves.



If you find out what model of boat your friends are paddling, you can post the model name here and get a gazillion opinions about it.



Flotation is important. I mean good-quality float bags secured with a “cage” of cord, not just cord through the grommet holes (which like to rip out at the worst possible moment). A pump is very useful, because…



Rescues can be done basically like a boat-over-boat rescue in a kayak. (Get perpendicular to one end of the capsized boat. Turn it upside down, then lift your end so water flows out and away from you. Flip it upright.) Because of the open top, the final flip scoops up some water that a decked boat doesn’t get, so you end up with more water in the boat, unless you have a second person who can lift that end.



A few canoeists can roll a canoe. I cannot. That’s one of the reasons I avoid high-risk paddling.



Don’t assume that practice with rescues on flat water gets you ready to do rescues on bouncy water. Even holding on to the capsized boat can be a challenge.



I don’t know what you mean by “ocean conditions,” since the ocean can hand you some really horrendous conditions, and of course it depends very much on the weather conditions on the day you paddle. Some conditions will overwhelm an open boat regardless of the paddler’s skill, and some (worse) conditions will overwhelm any kayak. Basically, I recommend you practice and paddle together, and then you assume that moderate conditions will present only slightly more risk to a canoeist than to a kayaker; heavy weather significantly disadvantages the canoeist.



You mentioned you are concerned about wind, which is valid. But some of us canoeists eat wind like it’s donuts. Just depends on the paddler.



Good luck with your decisions, and happy paddling!



Mark

speed
in my experience most kayakers want to paddle faster than solo canoers no matter what the individual speed potential is. i don’t know why,but it is almost always the case on mixed paddles. a different mindset maybe.

turtle

OK - I lacked a critical piece
If you are limited from rescuing a kayak, I agree a canoe could be more challenging in a full on capsize recovery. I didn’t have the bit that you couldn’t assist in rescuing a kayaker.



That said, if your friends have good float bags in their canoes, it doesn’t take so much rescuing to start with. A little stabilizing from you and a lot of bailing from them.

Good replies that cover …
most everything, except I would add one thing.



I’m surprised no one has mentioned the use of a kayak paddle in a canoe. As a canoeist, I avoid a kayak paddle (too wet), however when the wind and waves build, I’ll use a kayak paddle to provide morecontrol, maintenance of forward momentum and additional bracing ability.

You seem to want a race-style start?
When one does trips with both craft it’s often much easier to start at different times…and maybe take different routes…y/n?

anything to say about the topic?
Or are all your posts here just swipes at other forum members? If it helps, one tip is to ignore the OP’s name and just address the topic. Cover one eye if it helps. This was an honest question that deserves a sincere response.



There’s a forum for flaming other forum members, it’s called b&b. I know you’re familiar with it.

Maximum canoe width?
Can a kayak paddle be used with any canoe, or only with narrow canoes?




Unintentionally inflammatory question
I’m curious about this, really. Not intending to incite a riot.



I’ve noticed that kayakers and canoeists are very committed to their choice of craft and often can’t be budged to even try the other one.



For camping on large lakes, why would someone choose a SOLO canoe over a kayak? Easy of entry and exit has been mentioned, and I’m assuming also gear capacity.



For me the easier paddling, better handling in wind and waves, and dry storage of a kayak outweigh those two advantages of a canoe. I thought about getting a canoe last year for ease of entry, but I was shocked at how hard a canoe is to paddle compared to a kayak and I dropped the idea after the first try.