Not new
The older QCC designs and the original Swift boats are the same, plumb bow long and not finicky. There are also a couple of older designs in the Seawardn line that meet this description.
"utility of extended bow"
I’m sure others can chime in on this as well, but it has been my understanding that the raked bow design is intended for better manuverability in rough water.
Not to mention…
Aleut designs and other native craft that had plumb bows centuries ago.
It’s all about tuning the kayak to the local conditions, the purpose, and style of paddling that you wish to do.
Greg Stamer
Add Rockpool Taran and Stellar 18
to your list
john winters
Does like his boats a certain way.
Ryan L.
a trend it is
– Last Updated: Mar-30-13 5:55 PM EST –
Plumb bow and length itself (after a certain value) have little impact on kayak speed. Well, obviously they do, under academical considerations. But a) there are very few people who can sustain 0.8-0.9 hull speed of a 18-19 feet long boat for any meaningful, plub or raked bow b) hull/shape profile is everything. Take VKV boats - Seagull Elite/Off-Shore, Anita. They are pretty regular boats on their overall looks - they are also very fast on the water, compared to "conventional" sea kayaks, hard or soft chined. Reason? They are expedition kayaks with round bottom and not chines whatsoever.
So it is a trend. Most paddlers, me includes, would not mind being seen in an aggressively-styled "cool" boat.
As to utility of extended bow, imo, plub bow would be counterproductive when you want to carve a turn in rough water quickly and your bow is stuck in wave.
list update
Epic 18 & 18Sport
QCC Q700
Tiderace Pace 18
KayakPro Marlin & Nemo
Point 65N XP18 & Freya
Zegul Velocity
Valley Rapier 18
Nelo or Seabird Inuk
Stellar 18 & 18R
Rockpool Taran
For a boat to get on my list it has to have a minimum of stability and a design intent, similar to the one below, quoted from the Rockpool web site:
“The Taran is fast but with easy and predictable handling in even the most demanding conditions. The high volume bow gives a dry ride and maintains high speed through chop and rough conditions.”
Boats such as the Seabird Sport 600, or the Westside EFT, seem to me in another category.
I did not realize there were as many choices in this category as it appears.
Are you looking for a racing boat?
– Last Updated: Mar-30-13 7:21 PM EST –
The boats you seem to like could be of little interest to someone who favored a high degree of maneuverability for playing rather than going forward at a certain rate of speed, for example playing in surf and tidal races. As others have mentioned, there were native paddlers using both plumb and raked bow boats as the purpose dictated - a long time before well funded yuppies (including me) decided to start paddling kayaks for fun.
Whether a bow type seems to be a trend is really just a matter of what you have been paying attention to - various types have been out there for a long time.
But you seem to be asking for input about boats towards a new one with more racing use - or are you?
The Inuk was made by Kirton
– Last Updated: Mar-30-13 9:20 PM EST –
Not sure if there was a seabird version. Was a Nelo...
Also, are you only counting 18 footers? There is a 17 foot Tiderace Pace version too, if I'm not mixing my brands...
As for the upswept bow being more maneuverable, that only matters if it is underwater and if you actually want to turn from the bow (kayaks turn more from the stern, when at speed). I suppose, if a kayak has fat sides and pinched ends, regardless of whether the bow is upswept or not, it will turn better when edged compared to a plumb bow design of similar waterline length (more of the bow and stern would release on the former due to the volume distribution). Assuming equal waterline lengths and a boat at speed, I don't see how the bow being upswept affects maneuverability much, if at all. For the same waterline length, a boat with upswept bow will also be more affected by side winds too... Someone explain, in case I'm missing some aspect of it?
Epic Plumb Bow reasons
– Last Updated: Mar-30-13 8:37 PM EST –
Epic explains its reasoning
http://www.epickayaks.com/news/news/want-rocker-think-again
http://www.epickayaks.com/news/news/epic-kayaks--why-a-plumb-bow
I have an older model Epic 18 with a smart track rudder
and have no complaints about maneuverability.
Then again I'm not doing slalom events or paddling
among rock gardens avoiding obstacles .
There seem to be some that hold hard and fast to "tradition"
claiming a design must have done for a reason ,
and yet I think many designers merely followed what was before
without thinking out of the box.
Science does make evolutionary advances forward
-- via experiments and disproving hypothesis.
Some people simply love old cars, no matter what,
and a new fangled vehicle is just crap in their eyes.
Emotion often trumps what actually works very well.
not looking to race
Celia wrote
“The boats you seem to like could be of little interest to someone who favored a high degree of maneuverability for playing rather than going forward at a certain rate of speed, for example playing in surf and tidal races.”
Agreed. These boats do not have a high degree of maneuverability. I would choose my maneuverable, non ruddered, boat, for playing in surf, which I do not generally do.
" As others have mentioned, there were native paddlers using both plumb and raked bow boats as the purpose dictated - a long time before well funded yuppies (including me) decided to start paddling kayaks for fun."
Agreed. But native paddlers did not use boats with rudders. I am happy to be a well funded yuppie. Life is easier with a rudder.
“Whether a bow type seems to be a trend is really just a matter of what you have been paying attention to - various types have been out there for a long time.”
Well, it seems a trend to me. I think the oldest boat on the list is the Epic, and not all that old.
“But you seem to be asking for input about boats towards a new one with more racing use - or are you?”
Not really asking for input. Just expressing my interest in this newish trend. Not at all interested in racing. My Q700 seems to allow very efficient ocean travel and comfortable traversing of areas of turbulence and chop. Being a well funded yuppie, I would not mind another similar design if I though it would be a bit more stable and comfortable, when paddling unloaded on day trips, as well as a bit lighter in weight.
tumbledome
– Last Updated: Mar-30-13 9:57 PM EST –
hey, would look pretty cool if someone built a kayak with a tumblehome bow - make u feel like you are paddling the new Zumwalt-class :) :) :)
damn stupid autocorrect! tumble-HOME!!! argh!!!
Swift Boats, Pre-X QCC models
– Last Updated: Mar-31-13 12:10 PM EST –
Swift - http://www.swiftcanoe.com/index.htm
Compare to pre-X QCC boats. Note the similarity...
And these are not racing, but mostly touring boats. As noted in other posts here, the plumb bow is with reason for a racing boat, which is where Epic has always focused. So that would never have been a trend for them.
Touring boats are where there is a choice, and plumb bow is not new there. If anything the newest trend is emulation of greenland style boats.
Agreed
The Swift boats are John Winter’s designs, like the QCC.
both companies
Build john winters boats.
Ryan L.
fast, comfortable and stable
You might as well add the NC Expedition (nckayaks.com) to your list if you want stability, comfort and speed and oh–ravishing looks. The bow is not bluff, but very sharp and the boat is actually 19’-2".
NC-17
As it happens, I bought a new NC-17 some years ago. It is not remotely in the same plumb bow, ruddered category. Not only that, I thought it the worst boat I ever owned. Poor handling, terrible seat, not to mention the extensive leaks at the poorly designed seam. I sold it cheap after a year or so.
I think you need to add the…
Seda Glider to your list? Maybe the Current Designs Stratus?
not plumb
The Glider is 19 ft and does not have a plumb bow, so seems to not quite fit in the category. I used to own one, but it felt too long for me and generally felt like a very big boat, which the Q700 does not. Some good local racers claim the Glider is faster than the Epic 18, but I was not strong enough to take advantage, if true.
The CD web site for the Stratus says, "The bow shape of the Stratus increases water-line length, yet doesn’t catch weeds as an overly-plumb bow is prone to. " So here again the bow is not plumb like the others in this category. I never caught any weeds going through kelp in the Q700. Is this a problem with plumb bows? Never thought of it.
yep
AKA “open water” not on a pond.