not looking to race
Celia wrote
“The boats you seem to like could be of little interest to someone who favored a high degree of maneuverability for playing rather than going forward at a certain rate of speed, for example playing in surf and tidal races.”
Agreed. These boats do not have a high degree of maneuverability. I would choose my maneuverable, non ruddered, boat, for playing in surf, which I do not generally do.
" As others have mentioned, there were native paddlers using both plumb and raked bow boats as the purpose dictated - a long time before well funded yuppies (including me) decided to start paddling kayaks for fun."
Agreed. But native paddlers did not use boats with rudders. I am happy to be a well funded yuppie. Life is easier with a rudder.
“Whether a bow type seems to be a trend is really just a matter of what you have been paying attention to - various types have been out there for a long time.”
Well, it seems a trend to me. I think the oldest boat on the list is the Epic, and not all that old.
“But you seem to be asking for input about boats towards a new one with more racing use - or are you?”
Not really asking for input. Just expressing my interest in this newish trend. Not at all interested in racing. My Q700 seems to allow very efficient ocean travel and comfortable traversing of areas of turbulence and chop. Being a well funded yuppie, I would not mind another similar design if I though it would be a bit more stable and comfortable, when paddling unloaded on day trips, as well as a bit lighter in weight.
tumbledome
hey, would look pretty cool if someone built a kayak with a tumblehome bow - make u feel like you are paddling the new Zumwalt-class :) :) :)
damn stupid autocorrect! tumble-HOME!!! argh!!!
Swift Boats, Pre-X QCC models
Swift - http://www.swiftcanoe.com/index.htm
Compare to pre-X QCC boats. Note the similarity...
And these are not racing, but mostly touring boats. As noted in other posts here, the plumb bow is with reason for a racing boat, which is where Epic has always focused. So that would never have been a trend for them.
Touring boats are where there is a choice, and plumb bow is not new there. If anything the newest trend is emulation of greenland style boats.
Agreed
The Swift boats are John Winter’s designs, like the QCC.
both companies
Build john winters boats.
Ryan L.
fast, comfortable and stable
You might as well add the NC Expedition (nckayaks.com) to your list if you want stability, comfort and speed and oh–ravishing looks. The bow is not bluff, but very sharp and the boat is actually 19’-2".
NC-17
As it happens, I bought a new NC-17 some years ago. It is not remotely in the same plumb bow, ruddered category. Not only that, I thought it the worst boat I ever owned. Poor handling, terrible seat, not to mention the extensive leaks at the poorly designed seam. I sold it cheap after a year or so.
I think you need to add the…
Seda Glider to your list? Maybe the Current Designs Stratus?
not plumb
The Glider is 19 ft and does not have a plumb bow, so seems to not quite fit in the category. I used to own one, but it felt too long for me and generally felt like a very big boat, which the Q700 does not. Some good local racers claim the Glider is faster than the Epic 18, but I was not strong enough to take advantage, if true.
The CD web site for the Stratus says, "The bow shape of the Stratus increases water-line length, yet doesn’t catch weeds as an overly-plumb bow is prone to. " So here again the bow is not plumb like the others in this category. I never caught any weeds going through kelp in the Q700. Is this a problem with plumb bows? Never thought of it.
yep
AKA “open water” not on a pond.
Epic and South Africa
Epic was born in South Africa via Oscar Chalupsky
and Greg Barton making plumb bow kayaks.
South Africa has surf - lots and lots of it.
http://goafrica.about.com/od/southafrica/a/surfingsa.htm
Those 2 guys put their name, reputation and soul, into
a design that worked awesome in that environment.
A 12 time World Surfski Champion and a 4 Time Olympic Medal Winner
developed a kayak design in the world of SURF aka South Africa.
Some might want to tell them their designs suck
and need more old school rocker and extended bow.
http://www.epickayaks.com/about/contact
Does plumb bow belong in the surf
- others in South Africa certainly think so
http://www.surfski.info/latest-news/story/1482/product-launch-carbonology-sport-cruze.html
http://www.carbonologysport.com/
ADD ANOTHER ONE TO THE LIST
We have a Knysna Isthmus, a 17’ x 21" gas-pedal ruddered, twin-hatch, zero rocker, plumb-bowed South African glass SOT in our fleet. It’s twitchy boat for me and other, taller, long-waisted folks, but Sally rides it well, and even JackL and Nanci fared well on it.
It’s also a pretty speedy boat, right up there with the QCCs and Epics, tho’ still behind the skis. I’d say it’s the plumb bow (AND plumb stern) and a fairly sleek, non-rockered hull, that make it a fast boat, but assuredly NOT a traditional “playful” boat to
PADDLE ON!
-Frank in Miami
man
Archive digging, passive aggressive posting, you should stretch your legs in b&b.
More than one way to skin a cat. I’m a plumb bow kinda guy, but there is room for other designs. I’ve noticed some plumb bow designs have more flare at the top of the hull in the bow. I presume this helps with nose diving in surf. But then again, surfing and playing in rough water are two different things.
Ryan L.
no one criticized plumb bows
look, let’s drop this. I’ve deleted the previous prolonged sidebar because if either of us has a problem with the others’ personality or how we express ourselves, it doesn’t belong here.
No one has disparaged plumb bows, what people are saying is that other designs have a purpose also. All one has to do is look at other types of watercraft and the variety of hull designs.
I’m shopping for a ski this season if I can afford one, so I obviously don’t think plumb bows suck.
Knysna Isthmus
Them is sum hard words ta say!
Rex
18 ft kayak hype
I bought last summer an xp18 which was another example of chinese made crap being passed off as European (Seabird is another). I then traded it in for a Seaward Chilco 18’. I was impressed by their speed and storage capacity. BUT stability and rough water characteristics were bad on both and did not inspire confidence. I went back to what I did like before my bout of insanity and went back to a Valley Kayaks and got a Etain RM (do anything, go anywhere and rugged).
that’s a nice boat
I’ve paddled one, very fast and felt light.
reading all this
Reading all this plumb bow stuff makes me want to go out and at least try one.Still have high doubts if its any better at all. Looks kinda strange to me. Then Valley kayaks are know for good rough water capabilities like the last poster with the Etain plus Nordkapp is supposed to be really good and neither have this plumb bow. If I ever get a chance to try one out in rough water I sure will to see what all the whoopla is about.
mostly
Used for straight ahead speed in calm to moderate conditions. In my experience they can certainly handle rough conditions safely, but seeking that out, would seem odd.
Ryan L.
Good marketing speak but
Your facts are a little loose. Barton grew up canoeing but made his name in Olympic K1 (flatwater).
A surf ski can punch through waves due to its length and narrow beam, but like other long-boats they are not really at home in the surf zone. They are designed for surfing open ocean swell. Carnage is pretty common at events that require a beach start. Maybe you are confusing surf skis with wave skis (wave skis don't have a plumb bow, BTW). In the pictures you posted the skis are doing a diagonal run like a regular sea kayak. This can be fast and fun, but is very limited and you can't come close to doing what a surf kayak or a waveski can do.
There's much more to boat design than the shape of a kayak's bow.
I have three plumb-bow "go fast" kayaks (Legacy K1, 18x and V12 surf ski) and enjoy them for the conditions and uses they are designed. That said, it would be a mistake to take my 18X or surf ski into a rock garden and expect it to handle like my Anas Acuta. Either hull would probably be a broken mess of glass shards in no time. Likewise, if I entered my Anas Acuta in a race among surf skis, I would be dead-last, unless someone happened to die laughing from witnessing my hull hit the wall at a feeble 5mph, complete with a deep stern squat and a small rooster-tail.
Kayaking has its various camps; the "go fast crowd", "rock-hopping/tide race crowd", "traditional crowd" and more. I think this kind of thread can easily become contentious when one camp, either deliberately or not, imposes its own specific solutions on everyone else, even when they don't apply universally. Since kayaking is so diverse, it's impossible to give absolutes.
Greg Stamer