18, plumb, new trend?

I think you need to add the…
Seda Glider to your list? Maybe the Current Designs Stratus?

not plumb
The Glider is 19 ft and does not have a plumb bow, so seems to not quite fit in the category. I used to own one, but it felt too long for me and generally felt like a very big boat, which the Q700 does not. Some good local racers claim the Glider is faster than the Epic 18, but I was not strong enough to take advantage, if true.



The CD web site for the Stratus says, "The bow shape of the Stratus increases water-line length, yet doesn’t catch weeds as an overly-plumb bow is prone to. " So here again the bow is not plumb like the others in this category. I never caught any weeds going through kelp in the Q700. Is this a problem with plumb bows? Never thought of it.

yep
AKA “open water” not on a pond.

Epic and South Africa

– Last Updated: Apr-03-13 8:34 PM EST –

Epic was born in South Africa via Oscar Chalupsky
and Greg Barton making plumb bow kayaks.

South Africa has surf - lots and lots of it.
http://goafrica.about.com/od/southafrica/a/surfingsa.htm

Those 2 guys put their name, reputation and soul, into
a design that worked awesome in that environment.

A 12 time World Surfski Champion and a 4 Time Olympic Medal Winner
developed a kayak design in the world of SURF aka South Africa.

Some might want to tell them their designs suck
and need more old school rocker and extended bow.
http://www.epickayaks.com/about/contact

Does plumb bow belong in the surf
- others in South Africa certainly think so
http://www.surfski.info/latest-news/story/1482/product-launch-carbonology-sport-cruze.html
http://www.carbonologysport.com/

ADD ANOTHER ONE TO THE LIST
We have a Knysna Isthmus, a 17’ x 21" gas-pedal ruddered, twin-hatch, zero rocker, plumb-bowed South African glass SOT in our fleet. It’s twitchy boat for me and other, taller, long-waisted folks, but Sally rides it well, and even JackL and Nanci fared well on it.



It’s also a pretty speedy boat, right up there with the QCCs and Epics, tho’ still behind the skis. I’d say it’s the plumb bow (AND plumb stern) and a fairly sleek, non-rockered hull, that make it a fast boat, but assuredly NOT a traditional “playful” boat to



PADDLE ON!



-Frank in Miami

man
Archive digging, passive aggressive posting, you should stretch your legs in b&b.



More than one way to skin a cat. I’m a plumb bow kinda guy, but there is room for other designs. I’ve noticed some plumb bow designs have more flare at the top of the hull in the bow. I presume this helps with nose diving in surf. But then again, surfing and playing in rough water are two different things.



Ryan L.

no one criticized plumb bows
look, let’s drop this. I’ve deleted the previous prolonged sidebar because if either of us has a problem with the others’ personality or how we express ourselves, it doesn’t belong here.



No one has disparaged plumb bows, what people are saying is that other designs have a purpose also. All one has to do is look at other types of watercraft and the variety of hull designs.



I’m shopping for a ski this season if I can afford one, so I obviously don’t think plumb bows suck.

Knysna Isthmus
Them is sum hard words ta say!



Rex

18 ft kayak hype
I bought last summer an xp18 which was another example of chinese made crap being passed off as European (Seabird is another). I then traded it in for a Seaward Chilco 18’. I was impressed by their speed and storage capacity. BUT stability and rough water characteristics were bad on both and did not inspire confidence. I went back to what I did like before my bout of insanity and went back to a Valley Kayaks and got a Etain RM (do anything, go anywhere and rugged).

that’s a nice boat
I’ve paddled one, very fast and felt light.

reading all this
Reading all this plumb bow stuff makes me want to go out and at least try one.Still have high doubts if its any better at all. Looks kinda strange to me. Then Valley kayaks are know for good rough water capabilities like the last poster with the Etain plus Nordkapp is supposed to be really good and neither have this plumb bow. If I ever get a chance to try one out in rough water I sure will to see what all the whoopla is about.

mostly
Used for straight ahead speed in calm to moderate conditions. In my experience they can certainly handle rough conditions safely, but seeking that out, would seem odd.



Ryan L.

Good marketing speak but

– Last Updated: Apr-04-13 4:46 PM EST –

Your facts are a little loose. Barton grew up canoeing but made his name in Olympic K1 (flatwater).

A surf ski can punch through waves due to its length and narrow beam, but like other long-boats they are not really at home in the surf zone. They are designed for surfing open ocean swell. Carnage is pretty common at events that require a beach start. Maybe you are confusing surf skis with wave skis (wave skis don't have a plumb bow, BTW). In the pictures you posted the skis are doing a diagonal run like a regular sea kayak. This can be fast and fun, but is very limited and you can't come close to doing what a surf kayak or a waveski can do.

There's much more to boat design than the shape of a kayak's bow.

I have three plumb-bow "go fast" kayaks (Legacy K1, 18x and V12 surf ski) and enjoy them for the conditions and uses they are designed. That said, it would be a mistake to take my 18X or surf ski into a rock garden and expect it to handle like my Anas Acuta. Either hull would probably be a broken mess of glass shards in no time. Likewise, if I entered my Anas Acuta in a race among surf skis, I would be dead-last, unless someone happened to die laughing from witnessing my hull hit the wall at a feeble 5mph, complete with a deep stern squat and a small rooster-tail.

Kayaking has its various camps; the "go fast crowd", "rock-hopping/tide race crowd", "traditional crowd" and more. I think this kind of thread can easily become contentious when one camp, either deliberately or not, imposes its own specific solutions on everyone else, even when they don't apply universally. Since kayaking is so diverse, it's impossible to give absolutes.

Greg Stamer

Oh
So there more for calmer water and speed. Ok. Rougher water and following waves is were my NDK Greenlander Pro goes fast.Calm water its only ok speed wise.

I am sure there is a paddler above
(no names or boats mentioned) who is chuckling as he reads this.

He just won the 300 mile Everglades Challenge. Most here couldn’t keep a sea kayak upright in some of the conditions he was in.



jack L

i think
Greg explained it quite thoroughly above. He certainly paddled the best tool for the job in the challenge, in my opinion.



Ryan L.

I can go along with those thoughts

– Last Updated: Apr-05-13 2:53 PM EST –

I'll conceded that no one boat can do it all well.
There definitely are various kayak "camps" and "niches".

As kayak evolution moves forward, it's always formed upon
the backs of the ideas that came before it; i.e. prior experiences.
Progress will always have it's pros and cons to debate.



OK what did he paddle
I can’t find anything on the web

The "Compass Rose"
white over white Epic 18X named in honor of his mother who passed away in January.



Onno wing paddle with another as a spare.



Pix have been up on his facebook page.

They are not for “play”, but rough is OK

– Last Updated: Apr-05-13 9:15 PM EST –

I owned the Valley Rapier 18 for a couple of years, now have the Epic V10 Sport surf ski. They can handle the rough stuff just fine, the difference is how they do it and what do you need to do to keep upright.

I've measured my speed upwind in both against me paddling boats like the WS Zephir 150 for example or CD Carribou. In just about any conditions on open water I clocked myself faster in the plumb skinny boats over short distances that take say less than 4 hours of continuous paddling to cover. I've also paddled these against other paddlers in all sorts of kayaks in a few races and unless the other paddler is much better conditioned than I am (and I am not tht good) I consistently go faster than the "sea kayaks". The only long sea kayaks that can keep-up seem to be the likes of Seda Glider or CD Extreme.

The catch is that these thin boats require active paddling and very good balance. No matter what, you tire faster in them compared to other more stable kayaks in which you can relax more. So there is a break even point, where folks in more stable kayaks will be faster than when put in a less stable but "faster" hull. That point is different for different people. Up until recently I was faster than myself in the "slower" V10 Sport than in the "faster" V12 surf ski, because a lot of my energy went into balance. But I am good enough to be faster in the V10 Sport than in the Epic 18x for instance. When I first started with the V10 Sport I did not have the balance and was not much faster than I was in the CD Extreme for instance, but after a few months I did get faster as I mastered the hull in the moderate conditions that I paddle it.

These long ruddered boats are much faster in big downwind conditions than any other sea kayak design too. They are created for these conditions in mind in most cases. In steep messy side chop they do not have much advantage and in fact for most people will be at a disadvantage as they will struggle for balance...

The short story is that, these boats are a lot more demanding to the paddler and thus may not be right for everyone. I was scared to take the Rapier in rough conditions where I would not hesitate to take the Zephyr for instance. I knew I could paddle it but I also knew (tried it in controlled conditions to find out) that I tire too fast and self rescues are much harder and less reliable. My skills have since improved and I know I can handle it but I would still think twice if I were to go out in open water with it - check out Sean Morley's blog about his circumnavigation of a certain island - he too "chickened out" and did not take the Rpier and opted for a Nordkapp instead. On the other hand, Freya and Greg have proved that the Epic 18x Sport and the 18x can handle the rough stuff just fine for them ...