lookm for rotation
How would you tell if they are pedaling (pushing with their feet)?
Even in a touring boat, you could see it in their body. If they are pushing with their feet, their lower body will be turning some (a hip shift). If you don’t see any lower body motion, then they are not pushing (much, if at all) with their feet.
Now, I can see how my post might be read as saying that torso rotation shouldn’t be a goal. If that if what you read, that is mot what I meant. Competitive racers and the like have an absolutely need for it. Going for long distances, it very likely would be very useful. But if you aren’t in these categories and you try and it isn’t coming that easily, don’t sweat it that much. That is more what I am trying to say.
Doubtful about it being easy to see
I first questioned your comment because of your saying that you hadn’t tended to see expedition paddlers pedaling. But for example in our winter pod, everyone is. As for many training groups I have been in. My experience cannot be so uncommon. We are not elite paddlers. My best guess is that you are seeing more of it than you can recognize.
But - and I think this is where the break is - by the time you have someone in a dry suit, a layer or two underneath and a PFD, in a neo deck skirt, it is going to be very difficult to spot lower body movement unless someone is sticking way up out of the cockpit and has prodigious action in their middle part. I have low decks on my boats, but by the time I am loaded up with those layers at 5’4" in height no one is going to be able to tell if the lower part is pedaling. The only visible evidence will be the quality of my torso rotation overall.
In summer, with also warm water, in more form fitting clothes, maybe. But in the northern part of the country, that is not the majority of the year.
Forget Rotation And Try Using GPE
Or your body weight as a power source. This is how I’ve paddled for the past 10 years after injuring my back, and rotation only aggravated the condition. Simply paddle as you normally do, but instead of rotating and pushing with your legs, just drop your weight onto the blade and see how effortless paddling can be. Yes, free effortless power or GPE (gravitational potential energy) is always available in considerable abundance. Save your back and energy, so you can paddle for hours without fatigue, and go much faster than those paddlers rotating their paddles like windmills on the water.
Tell that to Oscar Chalupsky n.m.
Why?
Does he have a sore back?
GPE?
Isn’t that more work?
If the potential energy is equal to the work required to lift the object, aren’t you doing a lot more lifting? It’s less on the way down, sure, but what about the way back up?
interesting
Would you be able to post a clip of your technique in action? - I have difficulty visualizing it
Potential energy is a state function
you only get out what you put in - 0 sum gain. How does this help anything?
Arm-paddling gets the job done
Just not as well.
Most people, including me, started off arm-paddling. It will result in forward motion, yes. I guess you could stop right there and be contented. But the OP asked about improving his technique.
I use 3 ways of paddling
One is the "traditional" wing technique (regardless of weather I use a wing, greenland, or a euro paddle). Paddle starts at the boat and swings out and back. Works best with a wing paddle or a greenland paddle. Works OK with some euro paddles. Top arm moves sideways parallel to the horizon, crossing the center line quite a bit as the stroke progresses. Exit of the paddle is early. Similar to the race stroke for short sprint races. Strong leg drive, not much twist but a lot of rotation. Generally, for longer distances I relax some of the components a bit but the overall form remains the same. It requires good shape and a fast boat to have a satisfactory experience with this technique. But it gives the most top speed and power for me.
Another is a forward "crunch" technique, usually use that with my greenland paddle and alternate with the wing stroke to change what muscles I use. Less rotation, some body twist, power comes from the crunch forward.
Third I mainly use for white water with a short euro paddle. That uses some rotation and body twist. Powerful leg drive but not a long one so there is very little lower torso rotation. There is also some crunch component. The blade stays very close to and parallel to the boat all the time (white water boats don't like it when you have the paddle way to the side - they turn). Exit is very early (no dragging the blade behind the hip).
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Many touring sea kayak paddlers seem to use a mild form of the third technque the most. Rotation there is not huge (butt barely slides on the seat, if at all), leg drive is there but not exagerated (short and not too powerful), pulling arm tends to bend, pushing arm does not cross the bow much and stays lower than chin level through most of the stroke (going down towards the end), etc. There is some upper body twist, but not much.
This is just an easy stroke to maintain for a long time with a euro blade, as long as you are not pushing your speed limits. When you want to put in a burst of power, you revert to what I described above for my third option (you will tighten-up your form and lift your front arm, make it cross the bow at chin level, exit the water with the paddle early, more powerful leg drive, perhaps a bit of but sliding, etc.)
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Here is an interesting thread with plenty of videos on forward stroke: http://www.surfski.info/forum/2-announcements/17076-forward-stroke-comments.html
What kind of seat and back band?
A low, loose back band (more like a hip band)–or none at all–allow freer rotation. A slippery seat surface also helps.
It sounds like you haven’t “felt” what torso rotation is, but your backband and seat types might be making it harder to achieve.
Thanks for posting that link
"For experienced paddlers, technique training can be done just by controlling the workout a little more, staying conscious of your blade placement, hip rotation, etc."
Nice to read that his emphases apply to non-racing paddling as well as racing. Also the emphasis on flatwater work for technique refinement. I’ve always felt it was necessary even though not sufficient.
since I first saw myself
Since I first saw myself paddling on video with a go pro about a year and a half ago, I’ve really been trying to put some focus on removing the “crunch” component from my forward stroke, although I’m not sure we’re talking about exactly the same thing, but probably similar. I’ve noticed others doing it since noticing myself. The interesting thing is that I starting focusing on eliminating it for two reasons - to encourage better rotation (appeared and feels to me I was substituting one for the other), and I feel it’s healthier for my back. So my feeling was that it was just a formed bad habit. Not sure if there’s truly sound reasoning behind it, but I seem to have consistently slowly eliminated a little back soreness that seemed to be developing at times. I’m figuring the constant twisting for hours on end with a straight, somewhat properly aligned spine is helping over a habit of twisting for hours on end with my spine in something of a somewhat bent position from incorporating a sort of crunch motion habit. Seems to feel better & better over time?
I don’t know if it’s truly bad habit or a good enough substitute, but my experience tends towards the bad habit side of things. Who knows? It hasn’t been a quick habit to break, but hopefully I’ll keep getting closer as long as it feels healthy.
Yes, I Agree, For 30 Years, Oscar
Has been my paddling hero and inspiration, and I’ll always remember him and his brother Herman using flat “euro” blades to beat all the elite paddlers, including Olympians that were all using wing paddles in the 1989 BANKOH Molokai Kayak Challenge. All I’m suggesting is an alternative to the three principles of paddling: rotation, rotation and rotation.
Simply drop your body weight on the blade at the “catch” and feel the boat accelerate forward. No additional effort from your muscles are necessary, other than the reset for the next stroke. Adopting this technique has enable me to extend my water time from 20 minutes to 2 hours. Trust me, it isn’t fun to be 2 miles out at sea when your back goes out.
In kayak, torso rotation is a bigger
issue, but if you look at real-life, good paddlers, not at Greg Barton, you may find that they’re moving smartly along without exaggerated rotation.
It seems not to occur to torso rotation proponents that:
a.) there is a good bit of frictional energy loss in exaggerated torso rotation.
b.) if the arms and shoulders are used correctly, exaggerated rotation is not needed.
What is needed is a firm pulse of torso rotation, combined with appropriately limited arm action, right after the catch, and continuing until the lower hand nears the hip. You don’t want to keep rotating the torso as long as you can, because well before that, you should have extracted the blade.
Shorter, firm torso twisting, shorter, firm arm action, getting the work done in front of the hip. It’s the same basic approach in canoe paddling and kayaking.
Sorry No, But Do Check Out Videos
Of elite outrigger and SUP paddlers that appear to have adopted this technique.
Maybe Half?
True, But this Technique Packs a Bonus
Of being able to use half the effort. And when coupled with a lightweight shaft with a bit of flex, you gain an additional bonus of EPS or elastic potential energy.
Yes, but …
for a different reason. The amount of force you can apply to the paddle is maximal at the beginning of the stroke and declines shortly after that. That is just a function of how our bodies are constructed. So you want to extract the paddle just after the maximal force if you want to go as fast as possible. But for typical sea kayaking you can use a longer stroke so long as you do not bend your lower arm, keep rotating, keep the paddle vertical, and slice the paddle out to the side. That period of lesser effort but not increased effort from lifting water provides a short recovery period.