Help with Kayak purchase

Necky Manitou 13
Atmosphere near me has the Necky Manitou 13 priced at 804 CDN right now. Seems like an OK deal for a boat that could suit my needs. What do you guys think of the manitou 13?

Short list
For me I’ve narrowed it down to:

Delta 12.10

Necky Manitou 13

Daggar Axis 12.0

Alchemy 14.0L



For Wifey:

Delta !2s

Necky Manitou 13

Alchemy 14.0s



Or both of us going with one of the shorter crossovers like the Rogue or the XP10.



Thoughts?


not XP10

– Last Updated: Jul-08-13 2:08 PM EST –

Based on your recent clarification of mostly flat, I would definitely NOT recommend the XP10. I have one and love it, but NOT for mostly flat. (I think this has been noted earlier in this thread.)
My (our) first kayaks were in the 14' x 24" class (Manitou/Tsunami), very versitle; flat water lakes and pretty fast river up to maybe class II. However we both now have more dedicated lake boats in the 16' x 22" range; more efficient, faster. I prefer my XP10 on the river because it is super maneuverable -- 1 stroke to turn upstream.

My Manitou is for guests; my wife still takes her Tsunami on the river.

Manitou then?
So from the boats listed above, the Manitou 13 would not be a bad boat for us?

Not a chance!
You will not keep up in the crossovers! I often hear that is what folks want and they get talked into them at the store as a do everything boat. I’d much rather run class 2/3 whitewater in an Alchemy than go for a Lake/Ocean paddle in a Fusion.



The short boats are only good for white water or surfing. There is no chance they can keep up on the weekday night easy 6 to 10 miles paddles and they are not suited for paddling to a surf zone from a long way unless you plan to get there with other boats the same length.



Don’t be fooled by the marketing. These may be great boats for camping and whitewater and short surf trips, but I have never seen anyone do an easy 10 miles of flatwater in one.



That said, I did see someone do 8 miles in a 12 foot Axiom, but they worked pretty hard to keep up and many of us worked very hard to go slow to keep the group together.

I don’t know

– Last Updated: Jul-09-13 9:59 AM EST –

about those other boats -- for me, I just know about the XP10 from your list; others have given some general advice w/o knowing much about your size. From reviewing the thread, I don't think anyone has said yet what is most typically said, that is, try out boats before commiting with a purchase if at all possible (especially a brand new boat). Rent if you can, or go somewhere with an outfitter/guide or an event where you can try out a bunch. (From your post, it seems like you may have already done some of that.)

Get
the Manitou…outstanding performer in just about any water conditions, including whitecaps. One of the all time best 13-14’ yaks ever made.

What about Seaward kayaks?
I don’t see much as far as reviews on the 12 foot Pura from Seaward. Mec in Canada sells this boat for a reasonable price and it could work for me. I missed out on those Manitou 13’s right as I decided to get them. They have one 14 left.

which ones have you actually paddled
lists upon lists of 12-14 foot kayaks for flatwater lakes and easy rivers can be compiled. Nearly every kayak maker has something to offer in this range with the exception of ww companies and seakayak-centric Brit mfgrs.



what matters is how they fit and handle for you and wifey. Demo some, which will also allow you to try on different pfds if you need them as well as different lengths and shapes of kayak paddles.



If you are still fired up to buy without trying, a 14 ft. Manitou is low risk. Proven design and very good for your venues. If they fit in it, just about anyone can paddle a Manitou 14. They are very user friendly esp. for new kayakers.

The Man 14 has two bulkheads, btw, while the 13 has one. You can stuff floatbags in the bow of a 13, but in deep water rescues it will still take on more water and be heavier to dump.



If you buy it the 14 can be for you. Go on separate safari for hers. Get 'er done and get on the water.



You are not required to buy two boats simultaneously in order to get suitable boats. And if you play it smart, wifey’s boat can be a different fit for you and become a change of pace day/play boat for you when she wants to stay home.

Dagger 12
I think you mean the Dagger Axis 12, which is one of my kayaks.



Every kayak style has a purpose, water type and paddler body type it works well for. In general the crossover kayaks are more beginner to intermediate kayaks that are a big step above recreational kayaks but a step down from dedicated white water or touring kayaks.



I like my Axis for what I bought it for – I prefer moving water and narrow twisty streams/creeks with a small amount of easy rapids to keep it interesting. It handles flat water better than the XP10 and Fusion and is fairly maneuverable but as the rapids get more difficult (3-3+) you will get more performance out of the XP10 or Fusion, which are closer to whitewater kayaks. For the record, I have modified my Axis with thigh pads and hip pads. The Axis is more a touring kayak than the XP10 and Fusion which are closer to white water.



Most of the crossovers are nice boats for a larger person. If your wife is average woman sized or smaller I doubt she would like any of the crossovers.



I occasionally do canals or lakes – mostly calm but some are large enough to get waves and chop in the center from winds. I never had a problem doing 10+ mile paddles in the Axis but if I did more flat open water I would probably want a 14-15’ kayak. The Axis is nice enough on a lake and haven’t had any problems keeping up with 12-14’ touring kayaks, if we doing a normal pace. You might struggle more with a XP10 or Fusion.



But over the years I have seen many people run small twisty streams in 16-18 kayaks – if canoes can do that why not a kayak… I have also been on many trips where people ran class 3+ whitewater in 14-15’ touring kayaks without any problems – they usually just go straight with minor turns to avoid rocks. They don’t seem to have problems but it also doesn’t look as much fun.



I have also seen little squirt kayaks on big lakes and no movement canals – they do seem to struggle and not have much fun.



Honestly a 14’ touring kayak is probably more versatile overall. They can do easy whitewater but won’t be as much fun as a crossover or whitewater kayak. They are fine on moving water or rivers with limited whitewater and great on flat.



The crossovers will be a bit more enjoyable on rivers where you have lots of flat sections mixed in with 1-3+ rapids. But the more rapids and less flats you probably want to think about getting a whitewater kayak.






Both of you should get the STINGER
by liquid logic. It’s got a unique shape designed for white water but it’s also a 12.5 footer and pretty narrow. Not really a hybrid but worth a look.



http://www.liquidlogickayaks.com/stinger.cfm

good idea
Thanks - this makes sense, I have been thinking I may be able to use here boat as more of a play boat when she isn’t there. I’ll go take a look at the Manitou 14 again.



I’ve paddled rec boats from 10 to 14. Hated the WS 14 footer - it felt super wide. Current Design all felt good but we liked the 12.10 the bast. If money were not an issue, I would probably go 12.10 for me and 12s for her.

you have one?
hmm, right when I get away from the crossover idea, you show me this?? Do you have one of these? Can it do flat water?

No.
That LL will not do well in flat water. Even in the description it mentions it’s a creek boat, which isn’t meant to be used on flat water.



I second (or third) the Dagger Alchemy though, I’ve tested all of the crossovers you’ve mentioned and absolutely fell in love with the Alchemy when I demoed it.

The stinger just came out last month
I don’t own one yet…but I will eventually. I was hoping you would get one first and fill me in : )

The stinger just came out last month
I don’t own one yet…but I will eventually. I was hoping you would get one first and fill me in : )

it’s true the stinger doesn’t have a
straight keel so it wouldn’t be all that ideal for flats but it all depends on how far you want to go, how long you’ll be on the water. It won’t be an effortless paddle and tracking will no be as smooth but if your only paddling a few miles with a break at some point who cares. Then drive the four hours to the creeks and shred them. it’s still a long narrow boat…obviously not a touring vessel.

Thanks for the input
What you describe with rivers and twisty creeks is what I will want to do, but I will end up doing more lakes just bc of proximity. I am not going to rule out the Dagger though.

Tested more boats yesterday
I still like the 12.10 and I actually liked the CD Breeze with Rudder. I am thinking maybe it is coming down to space now. The 12.10 would let me do short camp trips. I would like to try the Seaward Pura 120 though.



I also tried a CD roto Kestrel. I didn’t love it so I am guessing I wouldn’t love the Dagger Axis 12.0 either.

Delta 12.10 for camping
I used a Delta 12.10 for camping in May and was pleasantly surprised by how well things went. I had no trouble at all fitting four days of gear in the hatches, did not even have to pack carefully. (I have medium/ligh backpacking gear). It performed well in rough water. There is really no reason why you can’t camp with the Delta 12.10. It’s a kayak you can take just about anywhere. Perfect pond, lake, and creek boat and also seaworthy in moderate conditions.





I still like the 12.10 and I actually liked the CD Breeze with Rudder. I am thinking maybe it is coming down to space now. The 12.10 would let me do short camp trips. I would like to try the Seaward Pura 120 though.



I also tried a CD roto Kestrel. I didn’t love it so I am guessing I wouldn’t love the Dagger Axis 12.0 either.