Why it's important to try before you buy

My options are pretty limited

– Last Updated: Sep-06-13 12:21 AM EST –

in Saskatchewan Canada. What the paddling stores around here sell the most of are rec kayaks and maybe some of the easy, entry-level sea kayaks. Almost nothing 21 inches and narrower. In fact, if I hadn't totally lucked out on a Suka coming up used, I most certainly would have had to buy it new..they don't even stock boats like that around here. The simply aren't in demand, and few buy them. Besides, I wasn't just in the market for a new kayak, or an upgrade on my rec kayak. I've never owned a boat before the Suka, and I had only ever paddled a small, wide, rec boat(and very infrequently at that) before I tested the Tempest and bought the Suka.

So I guess in their defense(they aren't my buddies; I don't paddle with them, so don't worry about me being offended! I'm not), they would recommend a Tempest or a Necky Eliza over a Suka, because their typical clientele ISN'T a serious paddler, and has no intention of becoming one. So for them, when considering their typical customer, the Suka does seem like too "serious" of a boat for a beginner. It isn't often one sees a sea kayak around here. Aren't you glad you live in a more paddling-oriented area?!

Anyway, the whole point of my bringing this up is that you can't trust what someone else says about what will work for you. And I think telling a newbie that they should just trust what a experienced paddler tells them they should be paddling is bad advice. Listen to their advice, and then try out those boats yourself!

Salespeople versus instructor/coach
A lot of what you mention above wanders into the territory of what a decent instructor would be covering, especially things like re-entry techniques and how to understand/use stability changes. You have an athletic background so were able to understand much of this intuitively, and even better had the confidence to go with your instincts.



But the folks who gave you this dreadful advice were probably doing the right thing as salespeople based on the numbers. As you say, the majority of the people who walked into the store would have likely been been happier long term with a more rec’y boat. This generates overall good ratings for the business, and everyone still has a job to pay the rent and it is a good thing.



I get lambasted on this board for recommending that people spend their money first on basic lessons, but your story is why. Had you listened to their advice, you would probably have realized you had spent a bunch of money on a boat you weren’t totally happy with about 30 minutes into your first time of serious training.



I don’t know where you can get skills work given your description of your area, but when that time comes I suggest that you check out the web sites of a couple of organizations to see if there is a coach listed near you. The people who were trying to sell you the boat don’t seem to be a match for your more aggressive goals. The ACA or the Canadian guides organization may have someone within reach. “Within reach” may mean an overnight stay somewhere, probably next spring, but it’d be worth it to get a couple of days of the right work.

yep

– Last Updated: Sep-06-13 8:46 AM EST –

I want to take a few classes next year, I want to learn to roll sooner rather than later(among many other things!), but they are done offering classes for this summer. There are instructors around here that won't have a sales-aim, but they are just few and far between!

But even if it had been instructors giving me the advice about which kayak to choose, I still would take their advice with a grain of salt. Everything about choosing a kayak, in my opinion, is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Frankly, there is just oodles of apparently bad advice out there. I researched the Suka as much as I could before I actually tested it, and probably 50% of what I read mentioned it being on the twitchy side. I find it so hard to believe now..but that information is out there. So is the nonsense that a ladder or cowboy re-entry can only really be done in calm water.

Look for winter pool sessions
You will want to get goggle or goggles/nose clip to keep the chlorine from bothering your eyes and stinging when it comes up your nose, unless you have a very high tolerance for that. But you should check for winter pool sessions, especially for the rolling. Warm water is a nice way to start, and starting this work in the winter leaves you ready to go right out of the gate come spring.

background
A lot of well-meaning people forget that there can be huge differences in “beginner” attitudes and ability.



In my case, I was a kayak beginner, but had a lot of time on Sunfish and sailboards and other wet tippy things in wind and waves, plus being very comfortable in the water. I started with a couple of sea kayak classes, and my “beginner boat” was an Avocet.



For somebody with a different background and goals, that approach could have been scary, frustrating, dangerous, or all of the above.



It’s not just water experience that makes a difference. Folks who have good balance and coordination from other activities have a head start. Attitude and goals are also a huge part of it – do you want to sneak up on wildlife in ponds, or surf breakers? Both are fine, but take you down very different paths. Good advice for one would be bad for the other.



Most folks that give advice mean well, but tend to be biased by their own experience.

Yes!
Exactly, I really identify with all that.

OK, Katie, it may be that you have
more difficulty spotting experienced paddlers than you do trying out boats. Don’t assume the sales people are “experienced” in any useful way. I can squeeze info out of such people, but I have to use oblique or even trick questions.



Remember that I said I can’t try out boats without buying and outfitting them. That’s how I learned I did not have to demo boats, as long as I could assess expert opinion and judge hull characteristics.



You may be better at demoing boats than most, but I still insist, most newbies are not capable of fully assessing boats in a demo session. They don’t have the knowledge, and they don’t have the feel.

beginners demoing

– Last Updated: Sep-06-13 11:14 AM EST –

When I was looking for my first boat I spent months going to every demo day I could find. My experience level was so low that the first boat I paddled that day would feel very different if I went back and tried it again after demoing several others.

My demo skills got better with more butt-in-boat time. But I still had the experience of swapping boats with other paddlers and having very different opinions about them.

Questions such as "What other boats have you paddled? What did you like/dislike about it?" can help you gauge the other person's perspective. I like tight-fitting, loose-tracking boats with low decks, and the list of models I'd say I like reflects that preference.

It takes some experience and perspective to go from "Yuck!" to "An OK boat for somebody else, but not for me."

It's another reason that taking lessons first can be a good path -- you're a smarter, safer shopper.

On the fit issue -- my wife and I found that a set of removeable hip pads was very helpful when demoing kayaks.
http://wilderness-voyageurs.com/banshee-hip-snaps-sku000189.html

true

– Last Updated: Sep-06-13 12:28 PM EST –

I don't know the sales people well at all, and I've never paddled with them, so they may not be "experienced" by your standards. But they do have some paddle certification(2 levels Paddle Canada), and over 20 years of paddle experience(limited to large lakes and slower rivers..no oceans near us!). Compared to me they are experienced ha ha! Interestingly, if you google "current designs suka not for beginners" you'll come up with a number of hits mentioning this, including at least one outfitter websites categorizing it as a boat for the seasoned intermediate or intermediate to advanced paddlers. Ha! Just goes to show, that perception is out there, no matter how wrong it is.

If you CAN'T demo a boat before buying, that is one thing. But I wouldn't recommend it as a practice for the majority. Anything I read, anywhere, from paddle magazines, paddlers on here, etc., recommends a demo. And I experienced the benefits myself. It may not tell one everything about the boat, but it is a great starting point when combined with the stats and others experience with it. Are you really disagreeing with that, or am I misunderstanding you? (directed at g2d)

Sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse...I can understand if you are saying that you, personally, haven't needed to demo anything to pick a great kayak. But is that really good advice for the average paddler?

You got a boat you’re happy with
That’s the important thing. Whether you change your mind about it several years from now is irrelevant, as long as you just (to paraphrase ScupperFrank) GO PADDLE!



I’ve bought boats that I demoed first and thought were OK because I didn’t know any better. It’s not that they were bad; I just hadn’t paddled many before. After I demoed and rented many more, I felt comfortable buying without trying, and that worked out fine in a couple of cases. In another case, the boat was fine unloaded but turned out to be too hard to edge when loaded. If you really want to make sure of what you buy, you’d have to not only demo but rent for at least a few days, and then paddle it in different conditions and both loaded and unloaded. That’s a tall order for many people, when even a short demo in a sea kayak might be hard to come by.



Now you’ve bought it, don’t get mired down in what-ifs. Concentrate on learning on the water instead. It’s a lot more fun than perpetually shopping, anyway.

demo conditions
So true. Some boats that are fun in waves – and that would be good for building skills – are unimpressive on flat water. A beginner probably doesn’t know what to look for, or have the skills to push the boat hard.



I’ll be the first to say that my beloved Avocet is not really happy in calm conditions. She’s not fast, she doesn’t track well, and she’s not very responsive unless you really work the edges and leans. But put some waves under her keel and she perks right up, delighted at the opportunity to play.



Or am I just projecting a bit…? :wink:

Had to look…
The whole bit in the inner thread about the Suka being cited as a more advanced paddler’s boat caused me to look over CD’s catalog. I wanted to see how the manufacturer presented it. Even though I am often not a fan of kayak makers’ descriptions, CD tends to do a pretty good job.



I can see the potential for confusion, especially for someone new to kayaking.



In general CD, as well as many other manufacturers, talk in extremely broad terms about stability and performance. What you end up getting is a comparison of primary stability for rec boats to transitional boats to full out sea kayaks all in a single flow.



So once someone has decided to start at the sea kayak level, their research is going to turn up a ton of references comparing a sea kayak to a boat that isn’t designed to support open water skills to start with. In terms of what the boat is designed to do - rolling, handling waves - any sea kayak is going to be more advanced than a basic rec boat. And it will have lesser primary stability.



What most of these conversations don’t include is that makes a boat safer in waves than something like a pumpkinseed boat. And unfortunately a new paddler is unlikely to be aware of that.



I found a few other outfitters that had adopted the same habit. But none of them were coastal or Great Lakes outfitters who might have nothing but sea kayaks to start with. So unless someone understands the relationship between boat design and intended use, not usually true for a brand new paddler, figuring out what advanced really means in terms of likely comfort in a boat can be hard.

I’m not sure he’s saying that
Personally, I’d say if the kayak is available to sit in, end you don’t consider the effort an unreasonable expense - then why not? I think all G2D is trying to say is not to put too much weight on demos, because they’re only going to provide limited feedback. People toss out the advice to get a demo for various reasons (often when someone is considering buying sight unseen), when it should be understood that a demo alone won’t tell you all you need to know.



If I were considering buying a boat sight unseen, and I had the chance to demo it, I would do so.

We do ““wear”” the kayak around us
Regardless of what loose or tight and or long or short

mean to various size people in their kayak,

it is truly a fit issue, a literal wearing of the boat,

around our bodies while on the water.



People ““try on”” every other piece of gear they own

like a pair of hiking shoes, a trail backpack, or a

new mountain bike, road race bike, etc., etc.



“Trying On” a kayak just makes good sense before purchase



Taking a beginner kayak class before purchasing will

enhance the buying experience to enable a “solid good fit”

Yes, I think demos are an overvalued
idea. I’ve seen new pnetters paralyzed by the purchase process because they couldn’t demo everything they thought they should consider. There are other ways of making the decision and coming out right.



But for kayaks, fit is less modifiable than it is in canoes. At least being able to sit in a kayak on solid ground is important. But any here who follow boatertalk know that if a boatertalker has a question about fit, capacity, anything about a whitewater kayak, lots of advice is available from paddlers of similar size. I assume such advice might be available on sea kayak websites.

We’ve had some fine info passed on
regarding this subject and it’s still important to “try” it out. At least for fit. One wouldn’t recommend a 21" wide kayak for a 300# person as they might just take you up on it and buy one only to find it may be too small. We are not all “advanced”, but most know from personal experience if something will at least fit our body. One doesn’t need to be a ‘rocket scientist’ or have a PHD to figure that out.

A neighbor had a Walden 12’ kayak for sale, in great shape, and at a decent price. I am short, but when I even just sat in it, I knew it would never do as the depth of the boat hardly gave me room to move my legs and the edge of the material was sharp, I just said, “Sorry, it’s not for me”. Another gal, from our ‘ladies’ group, and taller than I am loved the fit and way it handled. Different fits for different folks!

KATIE, may you, and all the other ‘newbies’ have many fun hours in your boats. I’ve enjoyed many different kayaks over the last 18 years and as I get older, those I had early on were enjoyed until I went to the next. With your perception, you’ll do well. ENJOY!!

Experience is still the best teacher!

I’m With Ya
I would never buy a kayak before trying it. I met some folks who built kayaks that they didn’t like. I’m sure some people who love building stuff would be OK with that. It would hurt me to the bone to spend hours and hours building a boat that sucked.

Try
In an ideal world, yest a test paddle is great. But if you buy a boat off of C.L. and the owner is 60 minutes away from any water it may not be an option. Reading reviews and asking opinions are just as important as a test paddle. I bought my kevlar canoe based on the above. Because of my research on canoe design and opinions gathered I knew how the boat would handle. Again, a test is great, but don’t pass up a good buy because you cannot test it.

try before you buy?

– Last Updated: Sep-10-13 3:56 PM EST –

Good for buying shoes, but not so critical for buying suits.

The boat should be the right volume for the weight of the paddler. But that can be easily determined by looking at the spec (most boat manufacturers list weight ranges for their boat).

Cockpit fit has a lot more "wiggle room"! Sure, a 200# guy may not fit inside a cockpit which a 80lb girl swims in. But once the leg room is sorted out, a lot can be outfitted (cut/pad) to make it fit. In fact, the cockpits are MADE to be modified!!!

(Well, a good boat's cockpit, that is. Some of the cheaper ones may not allow much modification options)

Maybe it's because I come from a cycling background, where no good bike shop would let a new bike roll out the door without FITTING the rider to it by swapping stems/handlebars/saddles. I hate to see people passing off boats that really fit their NEED but just doesn't fit their butt off the shelf. With a little bit of modification, they might be much better off with one boat over another which may seem more comfortable sitting in on first try.

Amen. n/p