Thinking about a new Royalex canoe?

Who needs it?
Well…

I do feel for the whitewater noobs. Royalex takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin’… to a point.



After that point there are better boats in glass, PE and Twintex.



There were good canoes before Royalex.

There will be good canoes when Royalex is no more.



So long Royalex!

It is probably a small market but
these boats will be badly missed by those of us who enjoy trips in the arctic regions. I still believe they will find a way.

Enter
The Chinese. I mean with the expansion of the Panama Canal and all those freight containers for the unloading and our need to import to settle their nerves about all the cash we borrow … some US entrepreneur should be able to get the Chinese to buy that royalex equipment for pennies on the dollar and Voila – Chinese popout canoes made from native American designs. The American patriot way. At least until the oil patches don’t run dry.

I’m with Tommy
They don’t make auto bodies out of royalex - for a reason.



If you want your composite to weigh more, just ask the manufacturer to add more layers of glass. Why not coating your boat with truck bed liner? There are alternatives.

I agree in part
It is true that good quality composite boats made with a robust layup will be plenty strong enough for the vast majority of users, including those who do a lot of river paddling, and even some of those who paddle whitewater. But good quality composite canoes have been significantly more expensive than Royalex boats which puts them out of reach for some folks.



Short, solid polyethylene solo whitewater canoes have largely (but not completely) supplanted Royalex boats, but there has really only been one solid polyethylene tandem whitewater canoe, the Blackfly Octane 92, and I understand that Jeremy Laucks isn’t making it anymore. Solid polyethylene is simply not a practical material for longer whitewater boats like a whitewater tandem tripper.



I have talked to a number of owners of Twin-Tex Esquif Zephyr whitewater solo boats. While a couple have been very happy with them the consensus opinion that I have gathered is that the material is not that suitable for hard core whitewater use. It is too susceptible to cracking and far too difficult to repair.



So far as I know, the only outfitter licensed by Esquif to repair cracked Twin-Tex boats is Blue Mountain Outfitters in Maryville, PA (that might be outdated info, however). I have heard of a few people attempting backyard repairs with variable results.



The Esquif Zephyr was introduced in 2005. As far as I know, it and the Robson Homes are the only whitewater solo canoes that have used this material. (The Esquif Mistrals are made out of Twin-Tex but are not generally considered to be whitewater boats). Esquif invested quite a bit in R&D and tooling to develop this material and if it had been a raving success among whitewater boaters, I would have expected to see more designs in Twin-Tex by now. It might well become the new favored material for general river use, though.



One of the biggest impacts of the death of Royalex will be that many good hull designs, which were never offered in composite construction, will simply no longer be available. It is conceivable that one or two of these might be resurrected by someone building a composite mold, but I doubt it will be more than a handful. Also some boat makers who currently manufacture only Royalex boats, like Mohawk Canoe, will simply be gone. Mohawk has been tying to develop a blow-molded polyethylene whitewater canoe for a couple of years, but it remains to be seen whether this can be brought to market in time to save the company.



For good reasons or not, Royalex canoes have constituted a big part of the retail market for new canoes. As was mentioned earlier, Royalex canoes account for 80% of new canoe sales at the Jersey Paddler. I think the loss of Royalex is going to leave a pretty big hole in the market.

Goodbye Royalex…

– Last Updated: Dec-09-13 2:56 PM EST –

Goodbye to a wide variety of Royalex boat models that will likely "never" be produced in any other layup.

Goodbye to boats that are less expensive than "other layups". Example: Want to guess what the price of a kevlar, or Twintex Mohawk Odyssey would be; compared to the same canoe in Royalex, or R-84 layup?
I'd guesstimate at least double the current price.
Some may say, Well I don't care; I don't want a Mohawk Odyssey in any layup! But what about those who might; those who could afford the Royalex layup, but couldn't afford kevlar or Twintex?
Tough shi- !?

Fewer options are "never" a good thing for the buyer in my opinion.

Extreme example: Chevy & Ford discontinues all models expect for Corvettes, and Mustang Boss 302s.
That'll be 45 to 60 grand; will that be cash, credit card, or our 10 or 15 year financing plan sir?

BOB

Strike three
This is the third company to discover that there is no money to be made in manufacturing Royalex.



Maybe Poly One did try to sell it, but no one else was foolish enough to buy.

“Oh dear. Trooper Streaker!”

– Last Updated: Dec-09-13 5:04 PM EST –

"Yes Colonel Otto Getus?"

"Hold that 2014 budget request submittal to the state house! We're gonna need to change the Chrysler requisition ticket! Strike the word "Charger" after "100" and before "Pursuit Units!" Make it read, "Viper!"


On another note of thought per Bob's post herewith, I seem to perceive, as with so many things these days (perhaps soon a class of people, too?), an erosion of the "middle." Meaning, if Coleman Ram-X's and its like are the bottom end, and those exquisite creations of Swift, Hemlock, Colden, Placid, etc. are the high, what remains to fill the middle-strata. Johnson Outdoors/Old Town's cross-linked and roto-molded hulls? Sort of a weightier, bottom-now-rising of the middle, yes? Esquif's just had a huge chunk of its stable chewed off, so will they dedicate themselves to pushing out more Twintex models, in maybe a "higher-ended" middle? Pete's comments would seem to indicate that it wasn't a seller before. Maybe now? With Scott going down, who are those "higher-ended" middles in composite construction of which Charlie speaks? Should I covet my father-in-law's chopper-stripped Wards model? (I think I could get that shoe-keel off with a few poling ascensions of the Patapsco Pithaway River.)

Or, is there a new plastic coming along, ? (Or old, perhaps? Whatever happened to that stuff George Washington Carver tried pushin' out of/for peanuts, to make fenders for that sour Henry Ford fella? Might go over well in this era of "green industry" subsidies. Least, till we need to rub the hull down with Sta-Bil 'stead of 303, on account of excessive water in the bilges leading to sputtering and false-start launches. Or it sends you into anaphylactic shock!)

Well, anyway, Mr. Kaz's Coho is looking all the more better to me these days, though I'm going to need to pile up more ducats. Hell, that last Royalex 16-footer I was eying in hopes of future purchase was pushing $1400. Guess I'll save near 30-pounds, spend near a Mohawk's worth in $900 addition (got to have a few extra S-Glass layers thrown on her belly), give Millbrook the order and finally give Mr. Henry's 22-year old fiberglass Explorer warrior a rest from these bony creeks of home.

I do have that Royalex Uberbot. But, with its 82-pounds of heft and my aging kness and back, that ain't no "middle" class vessel! No, she's quickly being "caste" an "untouchable."

KM, Denny Lange’s text on canoe
materials fails the accuracy test in important ways. The text is clearly manipulative to make it support OT’s marketing conclusion.



There will be many “solutions” to the problem of the end of Royalex. In my opinion, no version of poly will serve except for canoes under 10 feet long. Single layer, or 3 layer, they all end up being lacking in stiffness and rather heavy.



I see a renewed future for “Tufweave” canoes, made with glass and polyester and vinylester resin. But for larger canoes, the challenge is to avoid having to use foam cores, which introduce potential repair problems. I think this problem can be solved by a bit of beam reduction (speed!) and by increasing shallow arch. The shape must be redesigned a bit to yield stiffness from cross section shape.



And one more thing, that applies to any canoe where the shape isn’t quite stiff enough on its own. Foam thwart to bottom supports, or foam bulkheads. This simple addition keeps the bottom of the canoe from pooching upward, adds flotation, and can provide for seating, even for a portage yoke. I designed such a combination 40 years ago, but didn’t have the knowledge or ability to market it. That was several years before other foam pedestals appeared.

Good points…
I just bought a new OT Penobscot 16 and a new Wenonah Vagabond in the last year and a half, duplicating the Royalex boats I already had (and I bought them before knowing about the demise of Royalex, so I’m feeling a little like a fortune teller right now). For my purposes–float-fishing Ozark streams for the most part–nothing else does as well as Royalex. The various glass/kevlar lay-ups are all too noisy for fishing when you’re often scraping over gravel and rocks, the poly boats are too much heavier. I’m really glad I now probably have enough Royalex boats to last a long time.

Thinking about
buying an new Royalex boat while I still can got me to thinking about the last one I bought. That was before I knew that they came out of the factory in a soft “green” state and, as such, were vulnerable to dings and gouges. Were I to buy another, I’d want to leave it curing for a year or two before using it. And, that might mean that my heirs would be the first to paddle it.



Peter

Too bad
#1 roylex canoes are way cheaper than composits helping people to get into the sport who don’t want to spend $2,000+. I think this will unfortunatly push more to cheap kayaks.

#2 I don’t know about all the materials,but royalex is real slippery for going over logs and rocks besides being tough.



For various reasons,even though I own higher teck solos,my 300$ Mohawk solo 13 gets the most use of all my canoes.

Turtle

“So, what’s the buzz, tell me what’s…
…happening?” (These are sad times we, or at least I, live in, when one resorts to quoting Andrew Lloyd Webber disciple doo-wop! Or, imparting the question with a Rockyesque dollop of Brotherly Shove brogue, is it Andrew Dice Clay?)



I visit the various manufacturer’s websites on occasion, but seldom their Facebook sites. Is there spin thereabouts? Tis gettin’ to be the season, of various outdoor shows, that is, so there must be buzz.



It struck me funny, in considering alternate layups not of the fabric composites order, that I did not see the SP-3 layout listed on the Nova Craft website, although it’s the layup of the Prospector currently offered as a P-Net Sweepstakes prize. Old stock? Is SP-3 (perhaps in a new, lighter, SP-2.5) about to make a comeback within the Nova stables? Perhaps Polyethylene Pam (“Forget that pricey 303! Just a light, weekly application of PAM cooking spray to your Old Town Beluga 17 and you’ll be slip-sliding away over those waves and rocks! Later, ashore after a successful morning of fishing, just roll your Beluga over in the hot sun and flop the day’s catch onto her hull! Voila! Alfresco Fish Fry Extraordinaire!”) will be the reigning Tupperware Titan for the next decade.



Don’t know. I’m still pushin’ for Precision Paddler Peanut Plastics to be my next Poly Royal Rex! Now, if I can only find the right sultan, or that Buffet of billions fella to front me some seed money.

Don’t really no wassup, Tom
I know that both Esquif Canoe and Johnson Outdoors (Old Town) claim to have purchased or ordered enough Royalex sheet for their anticipated 2014 production runs.



For the heck of it, I called customer support at Wenonah a couple of days ago and asked if they think they will be producing all of the Royalex models listed in their catalog in 2014. I was told “we think so at this time”.



There is a thread which originated Nov 13 on the Swift Canoe Facebook page in which I asked if there had been any discussion among canoe manufacturers to try to cooperatively take over the production of Royalex and I received this response:



“There have been some rumblings that another canoe manufacturer may purchase the equipment necessary to make Royalex. The biggest issues with that are 1) cost (obviously), but 2) Royalex machinery is enormous and requires a huge space to operate. In order to buy the equipment you’d need a large facility to accommodate it. We’re all hoping something shapes up for 2015.”



Don’t know what the situation is with Mad River Canoe. My prior attempts to obtain intelligible info from Confluence Watersports have generally led to frustration.



It looks as if at least some of the major manufacturers will have new Royalex canoes to sell next year, although perhaps not all models and perhaps not throughout the whole year. Costs will be higher because PolyOne jacked up the price of sheet 20% immediately after buying out Spartech. Mohawk Canoe has been taking preorders and down payments to purchase sheet for next year and only planned to manufacture a few select models. If you haven’t already placed an order with Mohawk, it could be too late.

Thanks Pete.
I suspect, having seen what’s been up with the manufacturing and industrial real estate market the last five years, that there’s a huge supply of those big facilities/structures available for accommodating large manufacturing equipment. At least here on the east coast around large transportation hub cities like Baltimore and Philadelphia, although I’d also suspect it’s the same case (sadly for the fate of this nation’s economy and future wellbeing) nationwide. When these facilities do get sold/re-utilized it is usually because they’re near the water, and then they get either razed completely or, old brick having its “street appeal,” they’re “re-purposed” as pricy lofts, or corporate headquarters and distribution centers for tony sellers of Chinese-made athletic wear, or investment brokerage firms trying to “purify” their air with sort of an “Off Wall Street - But Not Too Far!” location.



Look at me, as usual. I’m just as guilty in my digressions.



Anyway, I’m sure space ain’t the problem. BUT, like you say, the cost of moving any huge machinery, let alone 20-to-30-year old, creaky-rollers wobbling stuff that probably sucks in more in nickels for maintenance than the plastic sheet it kicks out will yield, means $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!



Only thing gonna save this Royalty is an abomination of some Dr. Frankenmerger’s handiwork, and I’m not sure if Mad QuifNovaHawk walking this earth would be a bad thing or good,??? Although it would likely start its township terrorizations in Shenzhen, or thereabouts.

This just in
From Richard Guin of Mohawk Canoe posted on Facebook about an hour ago:



“It has been a very depressing week at the canoe shop. We spent un-Godly amount of time trying to make sure we ordered the right amount of royalx for the right boat . 1st Poly one told us we had until march to order material, then 2 weeks ago we were told we needed to get our order in this week. So we finally decided on what sheets to get, made the PO and sent it to them (this is were it gets sad) they returned our PO and said that they are no longer taking orders. So we are shit out of luck. This means if it is not a boat we have in stock it will never be again. This is the end of some really good models of boats.”

That is really sad for Mohawk and all
all those who wanted one of those boats.



I especially feel for the owners of Mohawk, since they’ve only owned the company for a few years.

No sweat!

– Last Updated: Dec-17-13 4:40 PM EST –


There will always be some Pelicans & Colemans available for beginners who want to get started.

You can always find a retired "beater" from outfitters. Some of those old, aluminum 17 footers can be made quite serviceable. Jumping up & down in the bilge will help bend some of the worse spots back into something resembling a canoe. Busted keel; no problem. Slap on a few dabs of JB Weld, or duct tape, and you're good to go.
Leaks? Carry a bailer & alternate paddling with bailing.
It's all about getting out on the water. It doesn't matter what the boat looks like, whether or not it will go straight, or has a propensity for sinking.

I jest!
:^)
BOB

Cayucos
Dugouts to you. Head down to the Saint Francis mountains. Mine you some of the right igneous rocks. Shape you a gouge, kill you a deer for tendon cordage, haft to an hickory handle and get to work on a bald cypress log. The oil patch has made this a sport vs. a way of life. Just a sign of things to come ahead from the way back years – digital age meet stone age.

Ah Ha!

– Last Updated: Dec-14-13 1:33 PM EST –

The technological wheel keeps on turning cranking out new ways to make old products. There may not be a market for Royalex anymore, but where one market disappears another appears... What we need is a 3D copier that can chip flint. Bound to make someone a fortune.
Edit: Come to think of it, if they get on it right now, someone here could be rich by next Christmas from selling the ceramic-bladed crooked knives with genuine faux caribou antler handles destined to be under all our Christmas trees in 2014.

BTW, I was chatting with a guy the other day who claimed that in addition to the worn out condition of the machinery at the Royalex manufacturing facility (Avon L., Ohio, right?) that there were toxic waste byproducts associated with Royalex manufacture.

I hadn't heard anything about this before. It might be just the kind of BS that we hear from time to time and doesn't amount to anything; and even if true there's a lot of ABS and poly products now being made that I would think would carry the same (or very similar) waste products that are being handled safely.

Has anyone else here heard similar (credible) concerns with regard to Royalex?