Monkey wrench
When you use a monkey wrench on a task that would be more efficiently done with a left handed monkey wrench…efficiency suffers.
Sounds as if you need a combination of flotation bags, and gear bags. Obviously, designers of gear bags never intended them to be used for flotation. Nor did flotation bag designers intend for them to carry gear.
Anything used for flotation in case of a capsize needs to be secured to the boat.
:^)
BOB
"Penny wise and pound foolish"
The answer is no
If your kayak with no bulk heads fills with water unless you have lots and lots of sealed in air space, it will sink.
I would opt for a couple of air bags. One lashed into the stern and one in the bow.
What the heck type kayak is it with no bulkheads?
Even the rec ones have some foam in the bow and stern
Jack L
An update to what I said before
– Last Updated: Jan-07-14 12:24 PM EST –
Some might say this idea is a cobble job instead of doing it right. I will agree with them if you are paddling in places where good flotation AND on-the-water re-entry may be necessary. On the other hand, if you are paddling mild rivers or other benign conditions where tipping over simply means getting the boat a short distance to shore, I still think it will do the trick. After all, nobody preaches about lack of proper flotation to canoe paddlers in quiet-water conditions, usually not even when they cross big lakes, yet with dry bags tied in, particularly over-sized ones so you maximize the volume they occupy, your boat will have far more flotation than any stock canoe (very few canoe paddlers tie in their packs securely enough for them to aid flotation). You wouldn't regret having the right boat for the job in the first place, but there's something to be said for working with what you already have, and for benign conditions this could be a perfectly acceptable option. Still, put in the thought to "get it right" as far as securing the bags, because you don't want to create an entanglement hazard either.
Dry bags are not usually 100-percent waterproof, but for the time it takes to get a boat to shore on an average river, you'll be fine. Even over an extended time, a little leakage wouldn't matter.
I am still looking for my left-handed
coffee cup.
The sales pitch was that I’d misplace it less often!
It all depends
upon whether the dry bags stay with the boat (either in, or attached). As Celia stated, if they aren’t secured, they are useless as floatation.
Behind a bulkhead, I’d give a “they’ll do fine,” statement, since they won’t go anywhere as long as the bulkhead holds (they may fail over time). Given a chance in an open boat, however, they will exit as fast as you do.
Secure them somehow.
Rick
define “down river kayak” NM
boat switch
I am thinking about replacing my Pyrhana Fusion S with a LL Stinger XP. I bought the Fusion as a limited WW and rock garden boat, I liked the tight fit on the S as it felt more like my touring boats. I have found that since I am at (or slightly over) the recommended weight for the boat it is a less than ideal WW boat.
I am looking at boats for self supporting river trips, and I have found most crossovers are terrible on flat sections of rivers (bathtub like).
I like the Stinger as it feels closest to a touring boat that is WW capable. When I tried out a Stinger it rolls easily, I can do a wet re-entry more easily than with a true WW boat, it holds enough gear for short trips; just no bulkheads or flotation standard.
For rock gardening I like my Dagger Alchemy, if it had more rocker (or if I was a better paddler) it would be perfect for what I have intentions in use.
You are probably OK
– Last Updated: Jan-07-14 1:04 PM EST –
The Stinger, like pretty much all whitewater polyethylene kayaks, has thick minicell foam central pillars running from the cockpit area out to each stem. They will certainly prevent the boat from sinking out of sight.
I secure the float bags in my kayaks, but I have known many whitewater kayakers who just put them in loose and blow them up. And the fact is they seldom come out of the stern of a whitewater kayak if the boat has a back band.
It is pretty easy to provide an anchor point for float or dry bags if the boat lacks any. I use a 3" length of PVC pipe around 3/4" diameter and simply push it through the central foam pillar at the appropriate place (a couple inches from the end of the pillar at the cockpit for the stern). For a set of float bags intended to stay in the boat, I would just pass through the PVC pipe a length of 3 mm nylon accessory cord or paracord and tie it the the loops at the fat end of the bags.
If you had to tie in multiple dry bags, I would pass a length of 1" diameter nylon webbing through the PVC pipe, bring it around the free end of the pillar, and tie it to itself. The loop serves as an anchor to secure lengths of nylon cord tied to your dry bags. This arrangement may not be as effective as securing the ends of the bags at the stem, but it works fine in a practical sense to keep the bags in the boat, and does not require drilling any holes in the deck or hull.
There are also float bags designed for gear storage. They are called "stow-floats" and although they are less common than when whitewater kayaks were all long, they are still available from a few vendors like NRS:
http://www.nrs.com/product/42070/nrs-hydrolock-kayak-stow-float
and Watershed:
http://www.coloradokayak.com/Watershed-Futa-Stow-Float.html
These might also work as well:
http://www.coloradokayak.com/Tapered-Dry-Bag.html
Maybe since long whitewater kayaks like the Dagger Green Boat and the LL Stinger are making a comeback, stow floats might see a resurgence.
The Stinger is a great boat
I think your idea of using dry bags will work IF…
1 - the weight of the gear in your dry bags do not have an adverse effect on the way you can paddle it boat
2 - your dry bags remain dry. Although, if they leaked a little bit you will be okay
3 - the dry bags do not come out if you wet exit. If you put them behind the seat without securing them you should be fine. Any in the bow will need to be secured.
Some other people mentioned “stow-floats” which should probably be a good option.
Not on the XP
The foam pillar doesn’t run to the stern on the Stinger XP. It goes from behind the seat to the hatch opening. You can easily lade and access that entire compartment without modification.
Absolutely NOT
– Last Updated: Jan-07-14 4:27 PM EST –
All dry bag manufacturers have disclaimers that
specifically mention something to the effect
"""not to be fully submerged"""
-IF they aren't 100% capable of protecting your gear-
are they worth trusting your life upon or a friends ?
A dry bag merely offers "some"
level of water resistance, not waterproofness.
Hence they will never be 100% airtight
Use the proper tool/gear for its intended purpose
No need for an extreme stance in …
– Last Updated: Jan-07-14 6:18 PM EST –
... this situation
So what if a drybag can't be relied upon to keep your gear 100-percent dry? Any large dry bag will still float really well with many times as much water inside as you are ever likely to see.
The original poster is going to be using dry bags anyway. If he has the space for air bags too, great - some people have already suggested air bags in addition to the dry bags, or combination air/dry bags as a good option. If there's not space for air bags, which is possible since space in this boat is minimal, big dry bags full of air and gear can fill up much of the space there is and keep water from doing the same. And for downriver tripping, just HOW are dry bags going to leak so catastrophically that the boat won't float long enough to swim it to the bank? With that in mind and adding a little common sense to that scenario, if no one thinks twice about the practice of paddling canoes with barely enough flotation to keep them from sinking when on typical rivers (and everyone I know does exactly that when canoeing average rivers), why worry so much about this kayak which will float much higher in the water when swamped than a canoe, with the worrying centered on the fact that the stuff keeping the boat floating so high wouldn't be used for that purpose if no gear were being hauled?
Oh, I almost forgot, another important point is that no one is "trusting their life" to the flotation in their boat when river tripping (again, how strange it is that once one switches the discussion from canoe to kayak, suddenly open-ocean rules apply, even if you're still on the same little river as before!). The flotation is there to protect the boat (reduce the chances of a pin) and to make it easier to pull it to shore if swamped. It's not there to protect the paddler. In a kayak, flotation only comes into play once the paddler has exited the boat, and when that happens in a river, the paddler just goes to shore anyway.
Moot point
If he’s tripping with a Stinger XP, he’ll definitely be using drybags and there won’t be much room, if any, for floatation. The cargo compartment has no bulkhead so drybags are a given. The hull is designed for creek racing, so it’s rockered and relatively narrow, which makes for limited space, partially consumed by the aft foam support pillar.
What do you mean by whitewater capable
You seem to have some 14 and 16 foot boats which would hold more gear and be better for tripping. Why jam yourself into a 12 foot boat. Is this a trip where you need to be catching tight eddies. If not, I’d go with a bigger boat.
I’m not a kayaker, but that’s my thought.
For the Stinger XP
the best solution might be to use one high quality stow float with an air filler tube like the Watershed Futa in the stern behind the foam pillar, and a decent sized roll top dry bag forward of that on either side of the foam pillar.
The stow float would allow you to inflate with air any portion of the bag not filled with gear and the dry bags would fill most of the space between the cockpit and the stow float. I wouldn’t count on getting much gear in the front although you might be able to carry something fairly dense, like drinking water, up front to better trim the boat. If you wanted additional flotation you could certainly get a pair of small bow bags like those sold by Harmony Gear up there.
I quite agree with guideboatguy. I often have one or more roll top dry bags clipped to D rings on the bottom of my open boats when paddling whitewater, and I have certainly taken my share of swims. While it is pretty common for a small amount of water to leak into the bag, it is typically only enough to dampen contents even after full immersion, and I have never had one fail catastrophically and flood. Actually, dry bags within a kayak hull are quite well protected.
If you want a roll top dry bag that is more nearly completely waterproof I have found these double roll top closure bags by Outdoor Research to be quite effective:
5 L size: http://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Research-Double-Window-Sack/dp/B004I5RLBE
35 L size: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/outdoor-research-double-dry-window-sack-35l~p~5318d/?utm_source=GooglePLAs&utm_medium=PaidShopping&utm_term=Outdoor_Research_Double_Dry_Window_Sack_-_35L&utm_campaign=PCGOOGLEP3&codes-processed=true
Unfortunately, Outdoor Research seems to be discontinuing them but they can still be found.
If my Alchemy had more rocker
and could spin and lift its nose a little better I would stick with it. Just a different arrow in the quiver.
willi, I agree that roll top bags may
siphon a little water through the closure when submerged.
But there are one-and-a-half bag makers whose bags will never take in water.
Watershed, and the old Voyageur slide closure bags. I’ve used both, and they are absolutely waterproof.
a few more things to consider
– Last Updated: Jan-08-14 10:53 AM EST –
how long are you goin' for and can you get it all to fit? I find that to be the big challenge. If your headed out for more than a day or two you'll find your boat fills up pretty quick.
Here's my approach- inside of a stuffsack for a sleepbag use a trash compactor bag as a liner. Gooseneck the top with a heavy duty rubberband.
Put aforementioned stuffsacks of clothes and sleeping bags in commercial dry bags. Do not over fill any dry bags. Use multiple small dry bags to make cramming in boat easier. Put food that would be ruined if gotten wet in small solid containers- new style plastic coffee cans or plastic peanut butter jars (assuming no one has nut allergies) and then dry bag them as well. Camera and electronics go in a Pelican box. Tents and everything else can get wet. Just stuff and shove until everything is jammed tight between the walls and pillar and beener in what you can for security. I've even cut or removed the pillars to secure dry boxes in ww boats for overnight trips.
You'll have plenty of floation but your going to find that the boat handles differently loaded. If you do capsize then draining the boat will be a pain in the a**. You'll have to unload all the gear. So just don't swim!
wildwasser overnighter
http://www.outdoorplay.com/Wildwasser-Overnighter-Storage-Kayak-Float-Bags
This is what you are looking for. I’ve used them on trips on the upper Missouri, the Mississippi and in the BWCA. I’ve tested them empty, inflated with just air and inflated with gear; they performed very well. They are sold as a set, I use both (2) in the front as my only bulkhead is located behind the seat. They are held in place with short line and a carbiner. No tangle hazard.
The idea of skimping…
– Last Updated: Jan-10-14 10:15 PM EST –
Some people like to do it right from day one
-- others tend to dance around the bush.
Some flotation air bladders actually
do have dry storage capabilities
http://www.nrs.com/product/42070/nrs-hydrolock-kayak-stow-float
http://www.coloradokayak.com/Watershed-Futa-Stow-Float.html
You get what you pay for - or don't pay -