Carbon is not inherently stiff. If one
orders from an intelligent maker like Mitchell, one can get very nice flexibility, and longevity. My carbon shaft Mitchell is about 18 years old. I also have a Clinch River paddle with a carbon/Kevlar shaft that is reasonably flexible.
We really need to get over the stiff carbon shaft myth. What do they make pole vaulting shafts out of?
I made a 5 degree bent shaft
with an ash shaft that is a bit superior to my Mitchell slalom paddle for straight-ahead cruising. But it is much heavier than the Mitchell, and lacks the Mitchell’s neutral handling for compound maneuvering strokes.
I’m not sure if a Mitchell carbon slalom paddle would get down to 20 ounces, but you can ask them. I saved a bit of weight by asking for ash blade edging instead of glass rope.
If you get a carbon shaft, ask them to put about 18" of vinyl shrink-down tubing over the shaft. Saves wear and nicks that might cause the carbon to snap under heavy load.
I hate the T-grip on the Wenonah’s.
Especially when wearing gloves - it catches in the web of the thumb.
what would be your estimation of the
– Last Updated: Feb-05-14 6:10 AM EST –
percentages of carbon to kevlar?
To the OP, Mitchell's Touring and Seneca are two okay wooden paddles. Rather inexpensive for good paddles and can be seen, once in a while, in the Monthly Special listing. One can always sand down the polyeth and bulbous bulk that present in some wooden paddles, especially the edges and often the throat...then thinly epoxied...adding a little stiffness...fwiw.
5*
– Last Updated: Feb-05-14 9:15 AM EST –
I like the idea of a low angle bent shaft, like 5* or so, as others have mentioned. It might be the best of both worlds in this case. Also, Zav offers a flex shaft if you want a less rigid feel. I think you just have to ask for it in the comments section, or call ZRE and bob can advise you on your options. He's a good guy.
I have 3 Zav's and highly recommend them to everyone with the money to burn. You'll never regret a carbon paddle.
I now use two ZRE’s for everything
– Last Updated: Feb-05-14 9:24 AM EST –
After many decades of wood and then hybrid paddles, I now use one bent and one straight Zav for everything.
One exception: for real whitewater I'd use my old wooden Mitchells, but I hardly ever run real whitewater any more.
I'm 90% a kneeling paddler and 90% of that time using single-sided correction strokes. I probably use the 48.5" bent 90% of the time on lakes and easy rivers. That's the carbon paddle I got first and would still get first.
I've had a 57" ZRE straight for three years. It has the offset blade, which does not flutter or bother me in the least. It's good length for bumpy water, reach and control strokes, but a little long for repetitive forward stroking on flat water.
I managed to get a symmetrical Barton carbon grip for my ZRE straight, but the last I heard all the current ZRE grips are now the same asymmetrical ones as on their bents. That would bother me somewhat, as it would be a little less smooth to palm roll, but others such as Harold Deal use it that way. You could make, or have made, a symmetrical wooden grip.
I find the standard ZRE carbon shaft to be too stiff and returned my first bent partly because of that issue. Both of my ZRE's now have the flexible shaft option, which has some linear fiberglass inside the shaft and is slightly heavier.
If you use a carbon paddle on bony rivers you might consider the whitewater blade, which I have on my straight and which also adds a little weight.
I wouldn't spend ZRE money on an intermediate bend shaft. 12 degree bends have been settled on now by canoe racers and cruisers as the most efficient angle. Outrigger paddlers have also settled around 11-12 degrees. You also can do all flat water freestyle control strokes with a 12 degree bent. I invert the paddle for side slips and bow jams (wedges).
As for the ZRE Power Curve, it's very nice, but I would only consider it if I was again running a lot of heavy whitewater. It's too big and powerful a blade for flat water and not all that light. I prefer my original wooden Blackburn Lutra if I want to go to that big-bite a blade on flat water.
Flex shaft
Glenn, I saw in an earlier post that you found the flex shaft too flexy in your straight shaft when you first got it. What do you think now?
I swear I saw the flex shaft options on the ZRE website last night for some models, but today I no longer seem to be able to find it.
Not too flexy
Perhaps I voiced concern before I got the straight shaft that it might be too flexy at the relatively long 57" length. (The shaft is long because the blade is ZRE’s relatively bottom heavy tulip shape, or whatever they call it.)
Having used it for three years, I like the flex. Sort of like a solid wood shaft of about the same length and diameter. Racing types or people who want every gram of force for efficiency may want the stiffest possible shafts, but not my old and slow shoulders.
Not sure what you need to know, but
ww paddles reinforced only with Kevlar were a disaster, because Kevlar has crappy compression strength. Kevlar should be used mainly where strength in tension is important. Though brittle, carbon can supply strength in tension where needed in a paddle, and provides great strength in compression as well. I’m not sure why anyone chose to include Kevlar in carbon/Kevlar paddle shafts, because every bit of Kevlar subtracts from compresssion stength on the concave side of a stressed shaft.
Glenn, for kneeling, a five degree
bent shaft angle is best for forward paddling.
The twelve degree angle used in marathon racing and for sitting hit-and-switch simply does not apply for kneeling. Five degrees is consistent with optimum catch and no-J-stroke paddling.
People seem to adapt to kneeling with 12 degree bents, but physics is physics. AND a five degree paddle can be managed rather like a zero degree.
Silver Creek offered a three degree ww paddle, late in their life. Roger Nott has one. And hidden in the blade mount and geometry of my Mitchell slalom is a bit of “trail” which makes it feel like a 3 degree bent, while it handles near neutral for maneuvers.
Composite Straight Shaft Paddle
– Last Updated: Feb-06-14 5:21 AM EST –
With dual power face (front or back) with razor thin edge by Patrick Moore. Simply exquisite for the kneeling canoeist who paddles only on one side.
My feeling is
that if you are paddling bony rivers all the time and at a quite pace you probably have little need for a carbon paddle and in all probability you will beat the s**t out of it in short order anyway. I use a Zav bent shat all the time but the environment you describe is one situation when I would leave my Zav in the car. I do not baby my Zav either. I use it regularly on trips and in whitewater. But slow and bony rivers? Nope.
No longer made or available.
My feeling is pretty much the same
but I generally try to avoid telling people they really don’t want what they want.
But a very lightweight carbon paddle would probably not be my first choice either. A paddle like the ZRE Power Surge really shines for paddlers using a high cadence or going long distances. But I will admit that a featherweight paddle can become quite addictive no matter what type of paddling you do.
Having said that, I will point out that all ZRE paddles are made in three parts (grip, shaft, and blade) so it is possible to replace a damaged or badly worn blade (although it is not cheap). I don’t know how the durability of ZRE’s bent shaft Power Surge and FW-Z paddles compares to that of my ZRE Power Curve paddle, but I so use the Power Curve in whitewater and it has held up to some pretty good knocks so far.
As g2d points out, if you anticipate spending most of your time kneeling, you will be better served bio-mechanically with either a straight shaft paddle, or one with considerably less angulation at the elbow than the typical 12 degree bents that marathoners and racers use. Those guys are always seated. When paddling from a kneeling position you can plant your stroke farther forward, and it is desirable to do so.
I had similar doubts
However, I thought light weight is nice no matter what. I like to go down the river for 2-3 days and do have to paddle through some longer stretches of pools. But, I’ll admit that I may encounter submerged rocks all of a sudden.
While the ZRE paddles are racing paddles, people seem to enjoy their lightness even in non-racing contexts.
Carbon paddles can be ok going down
bony rivers. I use carbon ZRE paddles pretty much 100% of the time on the central IL bony rivers & streams. The edge will get nicked & scratched when contacting rocks, but won’t likely break unless it gets wedged or is used like a crow bar. I haven’t severely damaged a ZRE going downstream, but I don’t do whitewater.
Going upstream in a bony river is another matter. In just one upstream venture that lasted about an hour last summer, I really abused the edge of my ZRE Medium straight shaft paddle. Very disappointing.
During most of its life, my Mitchell has
been used on rivers that are often shallow and rocky. Same for my similar Clinch River. Both have carbon shafts. The Mitchell’s blade is glass faced, the Clinch River has carbon facing. The Mitchell is well over 15 years old and is not in need of any maintenance, though one can see that it has been used. The Clinch River has the carbon fibers worn off the bottom part of one side of the blade.
I know I’m easier on paddles than most, but that’s not because I paddle deep, muddy rivers. Sophisticated ww paddles can last a long, long time, in the environment for which they were designed.
That’s Sad?
You mean no one makes composite canoe paddles with identical and symetrical front and back power faces anymore? That’s too bad, for the convenience of being able to use either the front or back of the blade equally sure saves a lot of time and effort doing various maneuvers where the canoe responds almost instantly. Certainly, maybe, those freestyle paddlers might use them?
+1
…Hope it’s just a temporary lull, butttt…things are really getting consolidated in the paddling world.
Meaning nobody makes Pat Moore Ques.